At what point is a tip considered phenolic?

TheNewSharkster

TheNewSharkster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was thinking about this earlier and I was curious because phenolic tips are banned at a lot of venues. I break with a Mezz Power Break II. If memory serves me correct it uses some sort of resin based tip. The site calls it the Sonic Tip.

When I look at the "Sonic" tip it looks like phenolic and breaks like phenolic but it isn't phenolic. How can anyone determine if a tip is phenolic or not?
 
Phenolic is a material, a type of plastic, it is the same material that the balls are made out of. I have played in numerous semi-pro tournaments and 1 pro tournament and have never heard of a phenolic tip being banned from any where, ever.
 
w9ball said:
Phenolic is a material, a type of plastic, it is the same material that the balls are made out of. I have played in numerous semi-pro tournaments and 1 pro tournament and have never heard of a phenolic tip being banned from any where, ever.
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Pretty sure it was banned by the BCA
 
Here it is (not sure if this answers my question)-

http://www.playbca.com/Leagues/LeaguePolicies/tabid/108/Default.aspx
B. Phenolic Tip Rule:

As of June 1, 2009, the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League in “Equipment Specifications” under “Cues,” item d. states:

“The cue tip must be composed of leather, fibrous, or pliable material. Phenolic cue tips are not permitted.”

The BCA Pool League is amending this rule to state:

“THE CUE TIP ON BREAK CUES MUST BE MADE OF LEATHER WITH NO NON-LEATHER MATERIALS ADDED TO THE CONTACTING SURFACE.”

There have been questions asked, such as: “What if I break with my jump cue?” and similar questions. It is very simple. Whatever cue you break with must have a leather tip.

The reason for this rule is that the BCA Pool League has witnessed too many examples of damaged cue balls. After consultations with Aramith and Simonis, it has been determined the major contributing factor in cue ball damage is the hardness of the tip on break cues.

For several years the WPA has taken the position that the cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the cue ball. The BCAPL subscribes to the WPA philosophy.

This policy only applies to break cues. Jump cues are allowed to have a leather or non-leather tip - since it is difficult to stroke with enough force to cause damage.

This rule will be in effect at the BCAPL National 8-Ball Championships and regional tournaments that the BCAPL promotes. Promoters, directors and operators of events such as league play or local tournaments may alter the rules as they see fit.
 
Lot's of the cuemaking parts that come in various forms of "plastic" use broad terminology. There's all kinds of "aegis", for instance. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but all these plastic materials are not specifically made for cuemaking....they have other industrial uses. So with different manufacturers making their own plastic parts, they'll call it whatever they want.

I always thought that "phenolic" referred to a linen based material, and that's why you'll see a weave pattern in all phenolic materials.
 
If it ain't leather, it's probably phenolic or similar. Mike Gulyassy's break and break/jump cues all come with leather, by the way:D
 
I just spent an hour refreshing my knowledge in organic chemistry, wrote a few paragraphs explaining phenolic, bakelite, etc, and Safari crashed... I lost everything I wrote... UGH!!!!!!!

In short, without knowing what type of resin Mezz used to cross-link with carbon fiber, I don't know if Sonic tip is technically considered phenolic or not.

Damn I'm mad!
 
How about this for a rule "All tips must be made from, or a substance similar to, leather", with no mention of "you can't use this plastic or that plastic or this metal or that". Just nice simple wording, use this, period end of story, have a nice day.

I'd also like to see a hard limit placed on weights and sizes of cues. I mean, you can't jump or kick, so you take out this teeny thing, you can't reach, you add an extention. And people complain how easy the game is now, no wonder.
 
TheNewSharkster said:
What about the "sonic" tip on the Mezz Powerbreak II? Is that considered phenolic?
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The way I read the rule you posted, whether or not the "sonic" tip is phenolic or not is a moot point. They were just specifically saying no phenolic, but the rule was written in such a manner that ANY non-fibrous material is banned. The description of the "sonic" tip sounds like it is non-fibrous; ie, not leather.
 
catscradle said:
The way I read the rule you posted, whether or not the "sonic" tip is phenolic or not is a moot point. They were just specifically saying no phenolic, but the rule was written in such a manner that ANY non-fibrous material is banned. The description of the "sonic" tip sounds like it is non-fibrous; ie, not leather.
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I saw that after I posted the BCA rules. Interesting. I guess if I play BCA I won't be able to use my break cue unless I have a new tip installed.
 
Technically speaking, carbon fiber is considered as a type of fibrous. However, I don't think there exists a resin that can be qualified as leather. So catscradle is absolutely right, phenolic or not, Sonic tip is not allowed in BCA tournament.
 
donuteric said:
Technically speaking, carbon fiber is considered as a type of fibrous. However, I don't think there exists a resin that can be qualified as leather. So catscradle is absolutely right, phenolic or not, Sonic tip is not allowed in BCA tournament.
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It seems the wording on the Mezz site doesn't really tell you what its made off. It certainly doesn't feel/sound like leather. I will send an email to Mezz asking for clarification in regards to the BCA rules.
 
hang-the-9 said:
How about this for a rule "All tips must be made from, or a substance similar to, leather", with no mention of "you can't use this plastic or that plastic or this metal or that". Just nice simple wording, use this, period end of story, have a nice day.

I'd also like to see a hard limit placed on weights and sizes of cues. I mean, you can't jump or kick, so you take out this teeny thing, you can't reach, you add an extention. And people complain how easy the game is now, no wonder.
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That won't work because they can always make a resin/leather based compound. The point in all this is to create a tip that is rock hard. It would essentially have the same effect as phenolic.

I have a better idea. Change the game so that the break isn't so damned important. 5x10 tight pocket would do the trick, and separate the hacks from the pros in the process.
 
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There is another thread where this same thing has come up. I copied and pasted my post from it..minus a few words,, that relates to this.


I just did a search,looking at phenolic tipped cues. Many use the word phenolic followed by carbon fiber ,,, linen,,or composite!!
Where do you draw the line?? I don't know!! But anything less than 100% is NOT the same!!

Cannon cues are the only cue I know of that have a true phenolic tip. There is no real tip on it,,,its a ferule with a rounded end. All one piece and does NOT require chalk. Its as hard as the cue ball,,chalk does not help. It cannot be shaped or dented. If you hit it with a hammer it would probally shatter.


I found a picture of a BK2. Its a phenolic composite.

http://anitokid.blogspot.com/2008/06...-into-big.html

If you have never seen or used a Cannon cue with a 100% phenolic tip. You don't know what the difference is. Apples and oranges,,,there's is a huge difference.



Problem is the word phenolic is being used ,,loosely!! And is a small % of the material used. But still being called phenolic!!
 
A tip is considered phenolic when it is made out of phenolic !!! Duuuuuhhhhh... Canvas or linen phenolic is stronger than the phenolic resin pool balls are made of , the tips will chip the cue balls ... :sorry::confused::(
 
Eric Wynne said:
A tip is considered phenolic when it is made out of phenolic !!! Duuuuuhhhhh... Canvas or linen phenolic is stronger than the phenolic resin pool balls are made of , the tips will chip the cue balls ... :sorry::confused::(
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I have a gold filled ring,,gold plated and a solid gold ring. I'm selling them all for the same price!!! They're all GOLD!! Which one you want??

Duuuuhhhhh!!! ;)
 
Eric Wynne said:
A tip is considered phenolic when it is made out of phenolic !!! Duuuuuhhhhh... Canvas or linen phenolic is stronger than the phenolic resin pool balls are made of , the tips will chip the cue balls ... :sorry::confused::(
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Lets say you go to a tournament that has a rule that says you cannot break with phenolic. You have a resin based tip or a really hard leather tip. It looks like phenolic and sounds like phenolic. How should the tournament director decide what the tip is made out of? It isn't as cut and dry and you might think since few people are really qualified to say one way or another.
 
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