Bad Fundamentals Discussion

[LowEnglish]

I would like to know what many of you consider to be a bad form of fundamentals for any player. I think we all know that as long as you can do anything consistently, it will work in the game of pool.

There are many "dont's" that the majority of the pool playing public knows about, and most of these are basics, such as staying down on the shot, not gripping too tight, etc. I want to discuss some part of mechanics that there is controversy about, such as dropping the elbow.

Some swear by it, others swear that it's harmful to your game. What do most of you think?

Another subject I wanted to bring up, is the wrist snap. I've heard many people that you should snap your wrist for power shots, and most of the people who teach snapping the wrist, say that EVERYONE should do it. I strongly disagree here. First of all, the majority of the pros don't use a wrist snap, even for long draw shots. I don't see any wrist movement from these guys at all. Secondly, I have NO IDEA where people get the idea that snapping your wrist generates more speed and more power in the shot. If you really pay attention, the wrist snap cannot happen until after the follow thru if the forearm of your grip hand is pointing straight towards the ground when your tip is at the cueball. The only way to get a wrist snap before ur at the contact of your tip to the cueball, your forearm has to be waaaay forward when your tip is at the cueball. These is yet another subject to be discussed on whether it is improper. Most people who have their forearm forward from the 90 degree angle towards the floor do that because they slip stroke on the final stroke. I haven't really seen any players do that and not slip stroke.

I don't care if I start a debate, my intention is get a ton of knowledge poured into this thread.

 

[Loun]

First off I think you are correct when you say that if something is done consitently then it can work. However... since im still new to the sport and being taught by a bunch of old guys, 1 in particular who has no problem yelling at me about what im doing wrong. Here are a few that I've learned:

Dont play with the butt (holding the far rear of the stick well behind the balance point.) It essentially acts more like a rudder and you are more likely to have side to side movement since you are further away.

Keep the back of your stick down so you are playing with a level stick and not shooting down on the ball. Playing with an elevated stick often times will cause the cueball to bounce slighty which reduces the effect of english, and draw since the cue is not in contact with the cloth as long (it also can cause side to side movement as the cue lands and the spin reacts)

Don't slam or plow the cue ball, play softly or drive the cue ball. Its all about cue ball control and you cant control it when you are slamming.

Make sure you get down low on your shots so you can see almost at ball level and remain that way with your follow through so there is no unnecessary movement.

Look at the pocket, then the object ball, then the cue, dont look at any other balls when shooting. While thinking 3 or 4 or 5 balls ahead is good... do not lost track of the fact that if you dont pocket the current object ball then the rest doesnt matter. I tend to worry a lot about the leave and I end up with the perfect position on the next ball and the object ball rattles the pocket and i give up the shot.

Dont choke the cue stick!

Dont bring outside problems onto the table. If you cant get into the game and put everything else behind you while there, dont bother playing until you can.

If you get bored on the table stop playing becuase otherwise you will start picking up bad habits.

They yell at me about a ton more stuff but I think that is most of the bad habits I was getting reminded about daily.
_________________________

As far as the wrist snap goes, snapping the wrist can be done as you hit the cue ball what it accomplishes is accelerating THROUGH the cueball which in turn does give a harder hit. However I can only imagine this helping on the break as there are no other times you would need that much acceleration through the cueball in my opinion. Let the weight of the stick do the work otherwise.

-Lou
Hope at least some of this makes sense

 

[Snapshot9]

or you could ...

Have a pro quality player stand beside you, tell you what to do,

and slap the dog shit out of you everytime you didn't do it ........ lol

 

[vapoolplayer]

Dont play with the butt (holding the far rear of the stick well behind the balance point.) It essentially acts more like a rudder and you are more likely to have side to side movement since you are further away.

Make sure you get down low on your shots so you can see almost at ball level and remain that way with your follow through so there is no unnecessary movement.

hope you didn't pay for those two tidbits of advice.

some shots are easier/and/or require your hand to be at the far end of the cue.

ask that guy what happens when the cue has a forward balance that is 2 inches forward of the wrap........am i supposed to have my hand higher than the middle of the wrap the whole time.

as far as getting down low.......some shots yes, some shots no.

i have found that even though they may have been playing a long time........the older guys aren't neccesarilly the ones you want to listen to.

find yourself a pro teacher and learn from them. you're wasting your time with the "old man at the pool hall"

VAP

 

[Rackin_Zack]

ask that guy what happens when the cue has a forward balance that is 2 inches forward of the wrap........am i supposed to have my hand higher than the middle of the wrap the whole time.

VAP

Hell, my hand is at the very rear of the cue all the time. On short soft shots, stroke length of 4-6", my hand will actually be completely on the wrap but for everything else it's just behind the wrap to hanging off the cue!

 

[vapoolplayer]

Hell, my hand is at the very rear of the cue all the time. On short soft shots, stroke length of 4-6", my hand will actually be completely on the wrap but for everything else it's just behind the wrap to hanging off the cue!

i hold mine farther back as well. i move my hand for different shots.

i think that guy found a bad teacher.

i'm sure keith mccready feels differently about where to hold a cue as well

VAP

 

[Rackin_Zack]

i hold mine farther back as well. i move my hand for different shots.

i think that guy found a bad teacher.

i'm sure keith mccready feels differently about where to hold a cue as well

VAP

yeah, being 6'2" I'm kind of forced into playing with my had all the way back. I do, however, have some friends who are taller than I am that hold the cue on the wrap most of the time, but they're way ahead of perpendicular on contact with the cueball and have huge elbow drops...lol.

 

[Loun]

hope you didn't pay for those two tidbits of advice.

some shots are easier/and/or require your hand to be at the far end of the cue.

ask that guy what happens when the cue has a forward balance that is 2 inches forward of the wrap........am i supposed to have my hand higher than the middle of the wrap the whole time.

as far as getting down low.......some shots yes, some shots no.

i have found that even though they may have been playing a long time........the older guys aren't neccesarilly the ones you want to listen to.

find yourself a pro teacher and learn from them. you're wasting your time with the "old man at the pool hall"

VAP

If you need to play with the butt of the stick because of your height then do it or purchase a longer stick. If your balance point is 2 inches forward of the wrap then your hand should be close to 4 inches into the wrap if I remember correctly and that isnt for my teacher its from another old guy... willie masconi. But then again since some people love contraversy you will say he knows nothing either. the longer you have between the bridge and the point of holding the stick the more likely there will be side to side movement *within reason* (you dont want 3 inches between bridge and back hand) Secondly there is always exceptions to the rule unless you are going to next say... are you supposed to stand on a stool on jump shots so you can reach tthe wrap?...

"as far as getting down low.......some shots yes, some shots no." Once again of course. Some shots require an elevated stick too and you cant get down on a shot with an elevated stick well.

"find yourself a pro teacher and learn from them. you're wasting your time with the "old man at the pool hall"" The old man teaching me was one of the best in my area years ago. I trust his theories, I listen to what he tells me and I've learned a lot / come a long way in a short time. He is also a friend but thank you for the advice and at some point im sure I will seek other advice as I progress.

I guess the last thing id have to really say on this topic is:

Fundamentals:
n : principles from which other truths can be derived; "first you must learn the fundamentals"; "let's get down to basics"

adj.
1. Of or relating to the foundation or base; elementary: the fundamental laws of the universe.
2. Forming or serving as an essential component of a system or structure; central: an example that was fundamental to the argument.

So essentially fundamentals is the gme stripped down to its foundation. which if I was teaching someone who did not know anything about pool I wouldnt be telling them, I want you to always shoot like this... BUT sometimes you have to not shoot like that... NO you tell them to always get down on a shot, always shoot with a level stick, and you start with where you are "supposed to" hold the stick. After they have figured out the fundamentals then you explain how sometimes the above arent the case because of different sitautions that arise. You are no longer talking about the fundamentals at that point.

-Lou

 

[Razor_Blade]

I would like to know what many of you consider to be a bad form of fundamentals for any player. I think we all know that as long as you can do anything consistently, it will work in the game of pool.

There are many "dont's" that the majority of the pool playing public knows about, and most of these are basics, such as staying down on the shot, not gripping too tight, etc. I want to discuss some part of mechanics that there is controversy about, such as dropping the elbow.

Some swear by it, others swear that it's harmful to your game. What do most of you think?

Another subject I wanted to bring up, is the wrist snap. I've heard many people that you should snap your wrist for power shots, and most of the people who teach snapping the wrist, say that EVERYONE should do it. I strongly disagree here. First of all, the majority of the pros don't use a wrist snap, even for long draw shots. I don't see any wrist movement from these guys at all. Secondly, I have NO IDEA where people get the idea that snapping your wrist generates more speed and more power in the shot. If you really pay attention, the wrist snap cannot happen until after the follow thru if the forearm of your grip hand is pointing straight towards the ground when your tip is at the cueball. The only way to get a wrist snap before ur at the contact of your tip to the cueball, your forearm has to be waaaay forward when your tip is at the cueball. These is yet another subject to be discussed on whether it is improper. Most people who have their forearm forward from the 90 degree angle towards the floor do that because they slip stroke on the final stroke. I haven't really seen any players do that and not slip stroke.

I don't care if I start a debate, my intention is get a ton of knowledge poured into this thread.

I am not a top player by any stretch of the imagination, but I recently had the rare opportunity to play pool for 30 to 40 hours a week for four months. I spent a lot of that time experimenting, and tweaking my fundamentals. Maybe the time could have been more well spent, but I learned a lot about what works for me. If I could have do that years ago, I feel like I would be way ahead of the point I am now.

You asked, so I will give my thoughts on the points you mentioned. Keep in mind this is only my opinion.

Elbow drop shouldn`t matter if it happens after the cueball is struck. Unless you have perfect timing elbow drop prior to hitting the cue ball can be diastrous. You can not have a consistent stoke if the elbow is dropping at a different time on each shot. For me elbow drop is best left out of the shotmaking process.

From my experience, I have to somewhat disagree with you views on the wrist snap. I believe that adding some wrist action does add some power to a shot. The next time you see a player that is really in stoke and destroying the rack on a nineball break, watch his wrist. It is also a timing thing that takes practice to develop. The wrist snap has a place in the game, just not on most shots.

I shot for years with my forearm ahead of ninety degrees, without using a slipstoke. It was a horrible piece of advice, that I got from a well meaning, but uninformed friend. He was close to a foot shorter than me and commented that I was holding my cue too far back. He then pointed out that another friend, who shot real good, held his cue a lot closer to the joint. He was short also! I soon read in a pool instructional book about finding the balance point to determine where to hold the cue. This only seemed to back up his theory. Even though I now know better, I still struggle with this. It is true that it is harder to unlearn bad habits than to learn good ones.

Books, tapes, and insructors may help at some level, but in the end I think anyone who really rises above the rest has to put in the table time and learn what works for them.

 

[Jal]

...Dont play with the butt (holding the far rear of the stick well behind the balance point.) It essentially acts more like a rudder and you are more likely to have side to side movement since you are further away...

I think the opposite is probably true. For the same amount of force applied to the cue you get more cue speed when you move your grip hand back. To make a fair comparison you have consider what happens at the same speed.

To get the cue moving at the same speed you have to reduce the amount of force applied to the stick and it turns out that this reduction more than offsets the increase in leverage from moving your grip hand back. So, in effect, you get less swoop.

Since there are more drastic reductions in cue speed when you move your grip hand forward than gains in speed when you move your grip hand back, the potential for more swoop is greater in the forward position (since you have to increase the force you apply much more to get the same speed).

I'm assuming that any sideways force is roughly proportional to the forward force applied to the stick no matter where you grip it. There may be bio-mechanical reasons why this isn't exactly true, I don't know.

Jim

 

[DaveK]

Fundamentals:
n : principles from which other truths can be derived; "first you must learn the fundamentals"; "let's get down to basics"

Truth in pool, interesting concept, but I'm not sure if it will fly ... yet. There has never been a systematic approach to teaching / playing pool that I can see. Other sports / games have development systems where fundamentals are taught. Pool has the old guys in the pool hall handing out advice. Other sports have competition programs to help develop cometitive players (as opposed to recreational players who would not go down that path). Supposedly the way to a competitive pool game is 'go on the road to gamble and learn to not starve'. I think you can see the difficulties with determining the 'truth' about fundamentals in pool. The wrist-snap debate is a classic case-in-point.

I'm hoping that the Taiwanese will create a good development system and methods for teaching and explaining fundamentals. Once they have time to run a bunch of kids through their programs, they might develop into world beaters. Then (hopefully) the other pool playing interests will take note and impliment a similar system. Until then we have the old guys in the pool hall and the road players to learn from ... The biggest trouble is that these folks have no vested interest in passing on information, nor can they establish any credentials for knowing the 'truth' other than anecdotal comments like "I've been playing for 35 years, sonny", and "The great '8-Ball' McCuemister once told me ...". Thankfully there seems to be some movement towards real coaching and training methods in pool, fellows like Blackjack who's a very significant contributor around here.

Enough of my ranting, sorry for the length ...

Dave, who wishes he had $1 for every piece of contradictory advice he's ever recieved from other players

 

[Jal]

...Keep the back of your stick down so you are playing with a level stick and not shooting down on the ball. Playing with an elevated stick often times will cause the cueball to bounce slighty which reduces the effect of english, and draw since the cue is not in contact with the cloth as long (it also can cause side to side movement as the cue lands and the spin reacts)...

The main benefit of holding your cue as level as possible is a reduction in the cueball's tendency to curve (swerve). If you could hold it perfectly level, you could eliminate swerve altogether.

But as far as draw goes, I believe an elevated butt helps to produce more draw when the object ball is far away, precisely because the cueball bounces a bit. Not as much spin gets rubbed off on the way to it.

Jim

 

[pooltchr]

There has never been a systematic approach to teaching / playing pool that I can see.

Dave, who wishes he had $1 for every piece of contradictory advice he's ever recieved from other players

Dave,
There are many BCA Instructors who teach the fundamentals in a very similar way. Many instructors learned the courses they teach from a limited number of master BCA instructors. Probably the largest academy is Cue-Tech in Dallas where many instructors learned to teach pool. Many of us work together whenever possible and share ideas and knowledge to be passed along to students. And most of us are pretty much on the same page with what we teach. You can find a list of them at www.bca-pool.com/play if you are looking for an instructor.
Steve

 

[Roach]

Here's something to chew on.........

The elbow dropping has nothing to do with it.

The elbow dropping or not dropping is the effect, not the cause.

It will not drop much, if any, in a good stroke, but teaching it to not drop will not give you a good stroke.

The answer is elsewhere.

 

[bsmutz]

From my viewpoint, (which probably doesn't carry much weight, but I will offer it anyway), what makes the most sense as to where you grip the cue with the back hand is determined by having your forearm at a 90 degree angle to your upper arm at the point of contact, tip to cue ball. So if you have a long bridge, your grip hand would be farther back than if you had a short bridge. Of course, not all shots are the same so bridge length and even the possibility of having a 90 degree angle will change from shot to shot. I used to grip the cue stick very near the end of the cue (I am 6'1" tall) up until 6 or 7 months ago when I decided to try gripping the cue closer to bridge. I feel that I am more consistent with this technique and can definitely tell if my grip starts moving back. Most of the time the feedback is a missed shot or two and I will intentionally move my hand forward which instantly leads to more made shots. I have also shortened my bridge length over the past few months and know that helps me also. I do have a tendency to wobble and can see the front of the cue moving side to side when I hold the cue farther back and have a longer bridge. I'm pretty sure I haven't completely removed the wobble but it sure is diminished and has much less affect on the outcome.

 

[vapoolplayer]

If your balance point is 2 inches forward of the wrap then your hand should be close to 4 inches into the wrap if I remember correctly and that isnt for my teacher its from another old guy... willie masconi.
-Lou

well you're really showing your enexperience here.

remember........willie mosconi was a straight pool player. how many times did he have to spin a ball in, draw two or three rails to get position???

i suggest you post this question in keith's section. there are many shots(especially rolling the ball) that are alot easier with the hand on the very back of the cue.

thanks

VAP

 

[Loun]

"I do have a tendency to wobble and can see the front of the cue moving side to side when I hold the cue farther back and have a longer bridge. I'm pretty sure I haven't completely removed the wobble but it sure is diminished and has much less affect on the outcome."

Apparently we both play wrong but have noticed the same thing.


"well you're really showing your enexperience here.
remember........willie mosconi was a straight pool player. how many times did he have to spin a ball in, draw two or three rails to get position???"

This is true I bet willie couldnt get position if he needed to since all of his five hundred and fifty or sixty some odd balls he ran well all straight in dead shots by accident.

Taking out reasons like being 6'1"+ or having to reach across the table and any new player that asked me how to shoot I would tell them to grip the cue 2-6 inches behind the balance point and start shooting consitantly before trying to "find a new grip" Maybe at that point they would be able to make an informed decision about it.

In the short time Ive been on here its come to my attention you all like to argue about pretty much anything so im going to leave this one as a we wont agree and both theories are in writing for anyone doing a search. They can try both methods and see what works best for them.

 

[scottycoyote]

i wish i knew more so i could argue too lol

but seriously, the wrist snap thing, there is one particular shot i use it on and it seems to work, i agree its a timing thing, you have to snap it right as the tip reaches the cue and it seems to give more acceleration and more spin. I will use this to get draw on a shot that would normall scratch, like the ob is near the side and i am shooting it in the far corner and i need the cb back on the side of the table im at for shapes. Ive noticed with the wrist snap i can draw the ball almost completely vertically off the ob, even if theres a pretty good angle and the ball looks like it would scratch.

 

[pete lafond]

ask that guy what happens when the cue has a forward balance that is 2 inches forward of the wrap........am i supposed to have my hand higher than the middle of the wrap the whole time.

as far as getting down low.......some shots yes, some shots no.

VAP

I agree. I also sometime will grip somewhat tighter on down table stun shots.

There are things that we have picked up over the years that are sometimes a combination of things that some consider bad, but are very effective. Some of Michael Jordans shots appear off-balance and some one handed side jumps seem awkward. Showing a beginner basketball player how to do these things would be foolish. For Michael and other players it is a natural evolution over time.

 

[Loun]

Showing a beginner basketball player how to do these things would be foolish. For Michael and other players it is a natural evolution over time.

I totally agree so these things are then not fundamentals

But anyhow there are exceptions to almost every rule.. definitely true