bad shot!

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budshot

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hi to all,

just wanna ask how will you tell if a shot is bad or not, if the object ball and the cue ball are closed-in to each other and is lined up straight to the pocket. such that if you hit it straight -up without draw, they will say that it is bad shot. could anyone give light on me on this matter. thanks!

julius
 
budshot said:
just wanna ask how will you tell if a shot is bad or not, if the object ball and the cue ball are closed-in to each other and is lined up straight to the pocket. such that if you hit it straight -up without draw, they will say that it is bad shot. could anyone give light on me on this matter. thanks!
It doesn't matter if you have draw on it or not.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/rules/rules2.htm
2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul.
 
What if you are using follow english on the cue ball then it would be going through the object ball depending on the angle of the cue ball to the object ball of course. If the cue ball is being struck in line with the object ball with follow english would that be a foul?
 
Midnight Rain said:
If the cue ball is being struck in line with the object ball with follow english would that be a foul?
If you double hit the cue ball, it is a foul. In this case, you double hit the cue ball if it goes down the table at about the same speed as the object ball.
 
Last edited:
SIMPLE!! You need to elevate your cue atleat 45 degrees and stroke down on hte CB creating backspin on the CB. This will in turn cause the CB NOT to follow the OB and it is a legal shot. You can also shoot the CB at a slight angle aff the centerline of the CB/OB, once again approaching at atleast a 45 degree angle. I can perform this shot 99% of the time and NOT foul and so can any level of player, not just the pros!

...Zim
 
i am being bothered by this rule ever since, and recently on the 'On Cue' Europe vs Phil, i saw Django (vs N. Feijen) shot something similar to this. The cue ball touching the object ball, line straight up to the side pocket. django did elevate the butt something like 45 deg. then shoot straight up. but the cue ball followed to about 8 inches then returned back for about 3 inches. this is what i can remember on that shot. django did not foul.
the cue ball following through with a back spin and not foul. Any comment?
 
It is considered a foul if the CB and OB travel the same path, and about the same distance. If the CB has ANY backspin on it, it's not a foul, hince the 3" return by the CB. That is what I've always been taught, and teach myself, and it has NEVER been called a foul while shot this way.

...Zim
 
Zims Rack said:
It is considered a foul if the CB and OB travel the same path, and about the same distance. If the CB has ANY backspin on it, it's not a foul, hince the 3" return by the CB. That is what I've always been taught, and teach myself, and it has NEVER been called a foul while shot this way.
Zim, budshot's opening question concerned the case of the balls being "closed-in" to each other. I read this to mean close but not touching. According to WPA world standardized rules making a double hit foul or not has nothing to do with spin or elevation.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/rules3.htm
3.23 FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS
If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed. If the cue stick strikes the cue ball more than once on a shot, or if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is foul. (See Rule 2.20 for judging this kind of shot.) If a third ball is close by, care should be taken not to foul that ball under the first part of this rule.

His most recent questioned was about when they are touching. This is addressed in the same rule, first sentence. In this case you can use any spin and cue elevation and it will be a legal shot.

I believe the 45 degree minimum elevation thing is used in the Valley pool league and so its practice might be found in the areas where that league is dominant. IMO. The reason Valley uses it is because judging double hits often can be difficult, so to avoid a bunch of arguments they say in effect, "jack up and double hit 'til your heart's content."
 
SKEEZICKS- I never implied that the 45 degree angle WAS A RULE! I simply stated that by doing that you will put draw on the CB and this will keep your tip from double kissing the CB at the same time...and the end result, a LEGAL shot that will not be considered a foul. It's just a general rule I apply to my personal game, that way there's no question if it's a foul or not!!

...Zim
 
Zims Rack said:
I simply stated that by doing that you will put draw on the CB and this will keep your tip from double kissing the CB at the same time...and the end result, a LEGAL shot that will not be considered a foul.
Yes, Zim, but what I am saying is that a double hit is very possible even with low spin and/or an elevated butt, that is if the cue ball and object ball are very close but not touching. If they are frozen, any combination of spin and elevation will result in a legal shot (no double hit) provided there is no other nearby ball or rail that cause a problem.
 
Skeezicks, i c wat ur saying, we just have to take extra care when hitting an object ball that is too near the cue ball.

is it saying that it's much more easier to hit a touching cue ball and object ball. what will coz hitting a touching ball to foul, is it only what zim said that if it goes with the same speed as that of the object ball, is there anything else?

thanks!:)
 
budshot said:
Skeezicks, i c wat ur saying, we just have to take extra care when hitting an object ball that is too near the cue ball.

is it saying that it's much more easier to hit a touching cue ball and object ball. what will coz hitting a touching ball to foul, is it only what zim said that if it goes with the same speed as that of the object ball, is there anything else?
Here is the double hit rule.
http://www.wpa-pool.com/rules.htm
go to 3. General Rules for Pocket Billiards
go to 3.23 FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS
"If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed. If the cue stick strikes the cue ball more than once on a shot, or if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is foul. (See Rule 2.20 for judging this kind of shot.) If a third ball is close by, care should be taken not to foul that ball under the first part of this rule."

What happens in a double hit is this:
The tip hits the cue ball. (first time)
The cue ball leaves the tip almost immediately.
The cue ball travels a short distance and hits the object ball.
(remember we are talking about the balls being close but not touching)
The cue ball is slowed or even stopped by the object ball.
The cue stick, still having some forward momentum (no matter how hard you try to shorten the follow through), travels forward and hits the cue ball a second time.
Here are a couple of ways to help you determine if you double hit the cue ball:
a) If hit with low spin, the cueball will penetrate the space occupied by the object ball (at the second hit) or even travel past it before the bottom spin catches and draws back. With no double hit there is no forward momentum of the cue ball, it will draw back from the point of contact.
b) If hit with high spin or center ball, the cue ball will follow the object ball down table at about the same speed. With no double hit the cueball will stop momentarily until the spin catches on the cloth, then it will either stop right there (center ball hit) or it will follow down table at a much slower speed than the object ball is traveling (high spin).


Now, the first sentence of Rule 3.23 above addresses the special case of the frozen cue ball - object ball pair.
"If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed."
This is what happens in this case:
The tip hits the cue ball. (first time)
The cue ball - object ball pair start to move as though they were one, leave the tip, and travel down table.
That's it. There is no second hit on the cueball.

The rule is poorly written. the third sentence refers to the "first part of this rule," but it is actually referencing the second sentence, not the first. The first sentence should be moved to the end, and the rule should read like this:
3.23 FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS
"If the cue stick strikes the cue ball more than once on a shot, or if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is foul. (See Rule 2.20 for judging this kind of shot.) If a third ball is close by, care should be taken not to foul that ball under the first part of this rule. If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed."
 
ah okay, nice, a lot clearer now. but one thing though, if any normal shot would be allowed to hit a touching ball, what shot will coz u to foul on this? tnx!
 
could this be considered a basis => you will foul if you hit an object ball (touching a cue ball) at normal level and the tip of your cuestick reach the location of the object ball before it was hit.
 
Micktmason said:
if any "normal" stroke can be used , ie. a nice follow through, wouldn't that be a push shot?
no
http://www.wpa-pool.com/rules3.htm
3.24 PUSH SHOT FOULS
It is a foul if the cue ball is pushed by the cue tip, with contact being maintained for more than the momentary time commensurate with a stroked shot. (Such shots are usually referred to as push shots.)
 
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