BCA POOL LEAGUE RULES - measuring

JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Is there a specific rule that says you cannot use your cue stick to figure banking angles and kicking angles.

I know it is against the rules to use your cue stick to measure to see if a ball can pass between the object ball and the rail (obviously when the object ball is close to the rail).

I have seen people using their cue stick to help visualize the angle of their banks and kicks as well as using their cue stick to help with system banking and system kicking without penalty.

Thanks for the specific rule which says you cannot use your cue stick to use in measuring the angle in a banking or kicking system.

The rules are available on the bcapl web site but I am not sure if this is addressed.

A referee's point of view would be especially appreciated but wouldn't mind hearing from any of you.
Thanks,
JoeyA
 
My understanding is you can use your cue to measure angles but you can't set it down and let go of it. You have to be holding it the entire time.

Brian
 
Joey,

I'm not familiar with BCA Pool League rules. I am aware that the BCA Leagues (BCAPL) are no longer part of the BCA.

I downloaded the BCAPL 2009 Rule Book and looked for a rule governing use of devices but found no such animal. I tried to attch the PDF file but it's too big.

I would contact the LO or the BCAPL main office for an aswer.

Having said that, my gut instinct would be that the rule from WPA / BCA World Standardized Rules would apply in this case. But what the heck do I know? Anyway here is the BCA/WPA rule:

3.42 DEVICES

Players are not allowed to use a ball, the triangle or any other width-measuring device to see if the cue ball or an object ball would travel through a gap, etc. Only the cue stick may be used as an aid to judge gaps or as an aid to aligning a shot., so long as the cue is held by the hand. To do so otherwise is a foul and unsportsmanlike conduct.
(Also see Rules 1.3, 1.4 and 2.15)

Hope this helps.
 
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my understanding has always been that you can use your cue to do anything you want-aim, measure angles, check for ball clearance as long as you keep the cue in your hand-and dont leave a chalk mark on the table to help you aim.

brian
 
btoneill said:
My understanding is you can use your cue to measure angles but you can't set it down and let go of it. You have to be holding it the entire time.

Brian
Click to expand...

I wrote the original rule and that's right on....SPF=randyg
 
Rule 1.3 in the current BCAPL 2009/2010 rulebook says this.

1. You are responsible for all equipment and accessory items you bring to the table. You may not use equipment or accessory items in a manner other than their intended use. Specifically:
a. You may use your cue, held in your hand or not, to help align a shot;
b. you may use either a built-in or an add-on cue extender;
c. you may use your own chalk provided it is compatible with the cloth;
d. you may use a billiards glove;
e. you may not use more than two mechanical bridges at any one time. A bridge may only be used to support the cue or another bridge;
f. you may not use any item to support or elevate your bridge hand. You may hold chalk in your bridge hand while bridging, but the chalk may not be used to elevate your hand off the table;
g. you may not use any ball, your cue, the rack, or any other equipment or width-measuring device or any part of your body to determine if the cue ball or an object ball would fit through a gap or to judge what ball the cue ball would contact first.

I've actually had some folks try calling me on item a. I've laid my cue on the table to retrieve a rack or bridge and they try calling a foul because I let go of my cue.

So let me ask this about g. You can not use any part of your body to determine if the cb or an ob would fit through a gap or to judge what ball the cb would contact first. I always thought your eyes were a part of your body.......

I can definitely see that clarifying rules are a great thing, but when you get too direct/consise then it goes over the top.
 
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mooseman said:
Rule 1.3 in the current BCAPL 2009/2010 rulebook says this.

1. You are responsible for all equipment and accessory items you bring to the table. You may not use equipment or accessory items in a manner other than their intended use. Specifically:
a. You may use your cue, held in your hand or not, to help align a shot;
Click to expand...

My understanding has been that to "align a shot" is different than figuring out angles on banks and/or kicks. To align the shot to me says you can set the cue on the table pointing at the cue ball or object ball and step away leaving the cue on the table. But doesn't include setting the cue on the table from a pocket to a cushion and leaving it there to align...

I could be wrong... It happens all the time :)

Brian
 
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Official BCAPL Response

Provisional answer: legal, with no requirement to keep your hand on the cue.

I say "provisional", because there is one facet of the problem that I need to check with the BCAPL National Office on. I had it on my list to discuss at our next meeting, but Joey's question will now accelerate the process.

However, I can definitively say that, in BCAPL play:
  • when using your cue to line up a shot there is no longer any requirement to keep your hand on your cue;
  • you are limited to the use of the cue you are using to execute the shot (for instance, you could not lay your playing cue on the table and then pick up your break cue to also assist. BCAPL Applied Ruling 1.3 Situation 1 applies);
Now here's the provisional part of the answer.

Joey's question refers specifically to "measuring". For reference, BCAPL Rule 1.3.1a reads:

"You may use your cue, held in your hand or not, to help align a shot;"​
However, BCAPL Rule 1.3.1g reads:

"you may not use any ball, your cue, the rack, or any other equipment or width-measuring device or any part of your body to determine if the cue ball or an object ball would fit through a gap or to judge what ball the cue ball would contact first."​
Although the measuring provision of 1.3.1g refers specifically to a ball fitting through a gap, I can see how Joey would be concerned that it might also apply to figuring out a bank angle, since some banking systems require transferring an angle from a specific point (e.g., half the distance from the object ball to the intended pocket). While that seems not to be a gap as referred to in 1.3.1g, it is not definitively addressed.

I will check with the BCAPL National Office and get you a definitive answer as soon as I can. Once I have an answer, I will ensure it is added to the BCAPL Applied Rulings.

On a side note: Seacaucus Fats refers to an obsolete rule. The current WPA rules clearly prohibit removing the hand from the cue, but are not so clear and require interpretation concerning using a cue to measure. The WPA rules that apply are 6.12, "Cue Stick on the Table":

"If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without having a hand on the stick, it is a foul."​
and 1.3 "Player’s Use of Equipment", coupled with 6.16 "Unsportsmanlike Conduct". WPA Rule 1.3 reads:

"...The equipment must be used only for the purpose or in the manner that the equipment was intended (See 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.)"​
and WPA Rule 6.16h, part of the list of acts which are specifically referred to as being UC, reads:

"using equipment inappropriately."​
Please note that neither the word "measure" nor "measuring" appear anywhere in the WPA rules other than when discussing equipment dimensions.

The entire effect is that under the current WPA rules, without more specific further guidance, it is up to the referee/TD to determine whether or not using a cue to measure a bank angle is within the intended use of the cue. If they think it is they will allow it, if they do not then they will call a foul.

Current WPA rules at http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
 
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tatcat2000 said:
Provisional answer: legal, with no requirement to keep your hand on the cue.

I say "provisional", because there is one facet of the problem that I need to check with the BCAPL National Office on. I had it on my list to discuss at the our next meeting, but Joey's question will now accelerate the process.

However, I can definitively say that, in BCAPL play:
  • when using your cue to line up a shot there is no longer any requirement to keep your hand on your cue;
  • you are limited to the use of the cue you are using to execute the shot (for instance, you could not lay your playing cue on the table and then pick up your break cue to also assist. BCAPL Applied Ruling 1.3 Situation 1 applies);
Now here's the provisional part of the answer.

Joey's question refers specifically to "measuring". For reference, BCAPL Rule 1.3.1a reads:

"You may use your cue, held in your hand or not, to help align a shot;"​
However, BCAPL Rule 1.3.1g reads:

"you may not use any ball, your cue, the rack, or any other equipment or width-measuring device or any part of your body to determine if the cue ball or an object ball would fit through a gap or to judge what ball the cue ball would contact first."​
Although the measuring provision of 1.3.1g refers specifically to a ball fitting through a gap, I can see how Joey would be concerned that it might also apply to figuring out a bank angle, since some banking systems require transferring an angle from a specific point (e.g., half the distance from the object ball to the intended pocket). While that seems not to be a gap as referred to in 1.3.1g, it is not definitively addressed.

I will check with the BCAPL National Office and get you a definitive answer as soon as I can. Once I have an answer, I will ensure it is added to the BCAPL Applied Rulings.

On a side note: Seacaucus Fats refers to an obsolete rule. The current WPA rules clearly prohibit removing the hand from the cue, but are not so clear and require interpretation concerning using a cue to measure. The WPA rules that apply are 6.12, "Cue Stick on the Table":

"If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without having a hand on the stick, it is a foul."​
and 1.3 "Player’s Use of Equipment", coupled with 6.16 "Unsportsmanlike Conduct". WPA Rule 1.3 reads:

"...The equipment must be used only for the purpose or in the manner that the equipment was intended (See 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.)"​
and WPA Rule 6.16h, part of the list of acts which are specifically referred to as being UC, reads:

"using equipment inappropriately."​
Please note that neither the word "measure" nor "measuring" appear anywhere in the WPA rules other than when discussing equipment dimensions.

The entire effect is that under the current WPA rules, without more specific further guidance, it is up to the referee/TD to determine whether or not using a cue to measure a bank angle is within the intended use of the cue. If they think it is they will allow it, if they do not then they will call a foul.

Current WPA rules at http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
Click to expand...

I completely understand the part about not using external equipment or measuring devices. I do NOT understand about not allowing you to use your body. Perhaps over the years I have calibrated my fingers to know they are 2 1/4 inches. Obviously officials believe this is an issue but couldn't I apply this to include my eye up to my brain. Of course I am kidding but technically it is in the rules.

Personally do I really care if someone has a tattoo or marking on their body that helps them measure gaps. Not really...........
 
tatcat2000 said:
Provisional answer: legal, with no requirement to keep your hand on the cue.

I say "provisional", because there is one facet of the problem that I need to check with the BCAPL National Office on. I had it on my list to discuss at the our next meeting, but Joey's question will now accelerate the process.

Now here's the provisional part of the answer.

Joey's question refers specifically to "measuring". For reference, BCAPL Rule 1.3.1a reads:

"You may use your cue, held in your hand or not, to help align a shot;"​
However, BCAPL Rule 1.3.1g reads:

"you may not use any ball, your cue, the rack, or any other equipment or width-measuring device or any part of your body to determine if the cue ball or an object ball would fit through a gap or to judge what ball the cue ball would contact first."​
Although the measuring provision of 1.3.1g refers specifically to a ball fitting through a gap, I can see how Joey would be concerned that it might also apply to figuring out a bank angle, since some banking systems require transferring an angle from a specific point (e.g., half the distance from the object ball to the intended pocket). While that seems not to be a gap as referred to in 1.3.1g, it is not definitively addressed.

I will check with the BCAPL National Office and get you a definitive answer as soon as I can. Once I have an answer, I will ensure it is added to the BCAPL Applied Rulings.




Current WPA rules at http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_tournament

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
QUOTE]

Thank you very much Buddy. I appreciate your response and look forward to hearing further information.

As a commentator at the Galveston World Classic, I know that the BCA PL rules will be used for this tournament and it important to me to have this clarified both as a player and as a commentator.

A couple of additional thoughts are:
Just about everything in pool is about measuring or calculating and if referees were required to call a foul on someone using their cue stick for measuring, they would have to call a foul on every single person, who aligns their stick with the shot, let alone using the cue to point in the direction of the path of the cue ball or the object ball.

In summary, everyone has a playing cue and it would be impossible to always know when a person is using it to measure an angle or a distance.

Further more, it seems that rules to prevent players from using systems that measure the angles and length of travel inhibits one of the exciting parts about the precision of pool.

Even then, all players are on an even playing field since everyone has a playing cue.

That being said, it takes a whole lot more than using a measurement system to pocket a ball or to play a good safety.

The rule about marking the table is a great rule and should be kept in tact which I'm sure it will.

Thanks again for responding and look forward to further clarification.

JoeyA
Click to expand...
 
More BCAPL info

Joey / all -

After reading more I see that part of the confusion rests in the definition of "measuring". It is a critical point. Again, I will confirm my info with the BCAPL National Office, but I think I'm on solid ground with the following info:

As used in the BCAPL rules, the term "measuring" applies specifically to calculating/obtaining a specific distance between two points, such as the distance between two balls or between a ball and a cushion, with the specific purpose of determining whther a ball will pass through a gap. Thus the specific reference to "gaps" in BCAPL Rule 1.3.1g.

As used, the term "measuring" does not refer to figuring out an angle at which to bank a ball or the specific degree of that angle, to include measuring a distance on the table to calculate an angle, as opposed the checking for clearance for the path of a ball around/between other balls/cushions.

While some here have observed, and it could certainly be argued, that figuring an angle is a form of measurement in one sense of the word "measure", the specific reference in the BCAPL rule to "gaps", and traditional practice, clearly do not support prohibitng using you cue to align a bank/kick shot.

It is also relevant to note that "measuring" in general is not prohibited by any BCAPL rule, with the specific exception of measuring gaps for ball clearance/contact under 1.3.1g.

Also, while some here have observed (fortunately, I hope, tongue-in-cheek) that your eyes are part of your body - PLEASE!!! Yes we try to make our rules as detailed as possible, but there does come a point...

The use of a finger (or any other part of the body) with a known or approximately known/estimated length to measure a gap for ball clearance is illegal in BCAPL play. In a nutshell, you are limited to your eyes and the balls as they lie with the table in position.

Also please note again that there is no requirement under BCAPL rules to keep your hand on the cue when aligning a shot. The BCAPL did away with that requirement in 2007, and I do not see it changing...

I also apologize for saying earlier that Joey specifically asked about "measuring" in the OP. He did not, and it is the use of the word "figure" that adds to the fun. Anyway, I'll have the answers for BCAPL play up as soon as I can, and will have it added to the BCAPL Applied Rulings.

Buddy
 
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tatcat2000 said:
Also while some here have observed (fortunately, I hope, tongue-in-cheek) that your eyes are part of your body - PLEASE!!! Yes we try to make our rules as detailed as possible, but there does come a point...

The use of a finger (or any other part of the body) with a known or approximately known/estimated length to measure a gap for ball clearance is illegal in BCAPL play. In a nutshell, you are limited to your eyes and the balls as they lie with the table in position.
Click to expand...

Yes it absolutely was tongue in cheek on my part. I just believe that part of the rule about not using the body is overkill.
 
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