BCAPL App - No ability to skip games, if not played

telinoz

telinoz

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BCAPL App - No ability to skip games, if not played.

We keep having occurrences in our local league where some teams cannot win on the night, so they don't bother playing the last games.
However, the app has no way to skip these games.
Instead, the league here wants players to just give games not played as WON to the higher FargoRate player, obviously a LOSS to the lower rate player.

I've tried bringing this up with BCAPL, got no answer.
Don't know if they post here, or if there is another way to flag it.

I thought the idea of FargoRate was to have legitimate games only in it, no fake game data.
I only recently found out about this issue, as I got stuck scoring one night when the Captain was out.
But, this league has been going 10 years!

I see people give Salotto stick and other platforms that can enter data into FargoRate.
But, BCAPL is supposed to be one of the premium partners is it not.... so, wondering why there is no accounting for games skipped to even allow this to happen in the first place.

I get it from the point of view of players not wanting to waste time, or in league finals the organisor wants to speed up matches.
But this practice is wrong.

I don't have access to LMS - to see if you can correct this in the backend or not.
Anybody know that?
 
Can you just make up a fake game for those they forfeit and give the win to the other team? I don't think BCAPL counts misses or safes or anything other than wins in the stats.

Funny thing here, I read the team names as part of the scoring sheet for a second and was wondering why they counted miscues and getting lucky in the scoring LOL It actually may be a good idea to count crap shots as something since it's not a skilled made shot, but it's also not a miss that ends a turn.
 
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hang-the-9 said:
Can you just make up a fake game for those they forfeit and give the win to the other team? I don't think BCAPL counts misses or safes or anything other than wins in the stats.
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That could/would result in a form of sandbagging for people trying to keep their Fargorate lower.

If the games cannot be skipped entirely, all games should be played out, to the best of each players ability. Anything less reduces the integrity of the system.
 
David in FL said:
That could/would result in a form of sandbagging for people trying to keep their Fargorate lower.

If the games cannot be skipped entirely, all games should be played out, to the best of each players ability. Anything less reduces the integrity of the system.
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Then the option is to make the players still finish the match or face a fine or losing standings. Of course I would bet no more than half would actually try to win in this case anyway. Or just give the other player just enough wins so the race is still even, so if they are playing a 5-3 race, give them a 5-2 win.

I know a lot of players would get pissy if they were made to play games when the team already lost and not many would try in the game.
 
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There is that issue of players not trying, when the team has lost already.
100%

Which is why the App needs a skip game option, so no false game data goes to FargoRate.

I don't agree at all with my local leagues approach to this.
Submitting BS games is not on.

So, no BCAPL league reps on here?

I found an email address to try next, as BCAPL Facebook group had no replies.
 
My brother and I run our local BCA League. I also got the opinion of other league Operators.

You mark those games as a forfeit in the scoring app. It will affect the player receiving the forfeit only in the local league stats. It does not alter the players FargoRate. AND, the players forfeiting still have to pay the weekly fees.

The policy you speak of are attributed to your local league operator. The BCA is not at fault here. The BCA is responsible only in the sense they give the local operators more freedom to form the league structure to suit the local players wishes.

For instance, BCA rules do not allow coaches. But, if the league wishes, they can coach. But it will only be at the local level. No coaching is still the policy at all higher level tournaments.
 
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buckshotshoey said:
My brother and I run our local BCA League. I also got the opinion of other league Operators.

You mark those games as a forfeit in the scoring app. It will affect the player receiving the forfeit only in the local league stats. It does not alter the players FargoRate. AND, the players forfeiting still have to pay the weekly fees.

The policy you speak of are attributed to your local league operator. The BCA is not at fault here. The BCA is responsible only in the sense they give the local operators more freedom to form the league structure to suit the local players wishes.

For instance, BCA rules do not allow coaches. But, if the league wishes, they can coach. But it will only be at the local level. No coaching is still the policy at all higher level tournaments.
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Cheers.

I will verify a couple of things here, but if good, I will pass onto the league operator.

I will also aso them to request FargoRate remove false data.
 
David in FL said:
That could/would result in a form of sandbagging for people trying to keep their Fargorate lower.
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After considering the options for a couple of days::

For those matches not played, make the score such that the non-playing opponent sinks all of his balls in a single turn, and scratches while making the game-ball.

This prevents sandbagging--they get rated higher for not playing rather than lower.
Playing opponent is not harmed--as they took no shots in the non-played game.
 
buckshotshoey said:
My brother and I run our local BCA League. I also got the opinion of other league Operators.

You mark those games as a forfeit in the scoring app. It will affect the player receiving the forfeit only in the local league stats. It does not alter the players FargoRate. AND, the players forfeiting still have to pay the weekly fees.

The policy you speak of are attributed to your local league operator. The BCA is not at fault here. The BCA is responsible only in the sense they give the local operators more freedom to form the league structure to suit the local players wishes.

For instance, BCA rules do not allow coaches. But, if the league wishes, they can coach. But it will only be at the local level. No coaching is still the policy at all higher level tournaments.
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There should be the ability to not affect anything if there was not a pool game played. If you wish to give the player receiving the forfeit a win in league standings you cannot do it without writing a real name in the other side of which that player gets a loss in the standings. Even though they may not even have been present at the venue the system insists you write a valid players name there of some kind. Fargo cares about their own data being reliable but your league standings? Not so much.

The cure? A system wide placeholder/fallguy to write in when a team is short a player that will just take a loss and not affect anything else either in fargorate or league standings. The reason we have historically wanted to score the points for the winner by forfeit is because we payout based on points and they paid their weekly dues to play that game and should have the opportunity to win it whether the other team has a player or not. Now you can set your division to award the win but then it also awards the loss to someone Fargo has insisted you write down as the opponent.

I'm tired of fighting it though so starting next session I no longer care what's fair for my players, I'm interested only in what's easy and consistent for me scoring the league. If the opposing team is short tough luck you lose. Yup I've gotten apathetic.

There
 
Deruki said:
There should be the ability to not affect anything if there was not a pool game played. If you wish to give the player receiving the forfeit a win in league standings you cannot do it without writing a real name in the other side of which that player gets a loss in the standings. Even though they may not even have been present at the venue the system insists you write a valid players name there of some kind. Fargo cares about their own data being reliable but your league standings? Not so much.

The cure? A system wide placeholder/fallguy to write in when a team is short a player that will just take a loss and not affect anything else either in fargorate or league standings. The reason we have historically wanted to score the points for the winner by forfeit is because we payout based on points and they paid their weekly dues to play that game and should have the opportunity to win it whether the other team has a player or not. Now you can set your division to award the win but then it also awards the loss to someone Fargo has insisted you write down as the opponent.

I'm tired of fighting it though so starting next session I no longer care what's fair for my players, I'm interested only in what's easy and consistent for me scoring the league. If the opposing team is short tough luck you lose. Yup I've gotten apathetic.

There
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What's wrong with that? If a player decides to Forfeit, why shouldn't they be punished in some way? That's why you put real players names in there.. they still have to pay their weekly fees.... they are paying NOT to play.. and they get a loss for it. And on top of it, the team loses money at the end during the payout. One of the reasons to keep playing is what you have already mentioned.. points based payouts. Even if you can't win the night, you should at least try to get as many points possible for your team for the payout at the end of the year.

I understand your position, but there's another way to handle it.. let one of their players play twice. Nobody gets a forfeit, everybody gets to play, and the player that didn't show up pays for the guy that plays twice. And yes, you can do that.

But that's not really the scenario that was described in the first post. It was about teams that quit early because they have no chance to win. As long as they pay their nightly fees.... whether they play or not.... then the payouts of the others aren't affected in the least. And quitting before the match is over falls under the rule of conceding a game or a match. It's a sportsmanship violation.

I'm not going to tell you how to run your league, assuming that you really do run a league. It's totally up to you how you want to do it. I myself like to keep the players happy, so I structure the league how they want it. But on the flip side of that coin, they have absolutely no grounds to bitch at me for anything that doesn't go their way.

And the above paragraph is exactly why you have local bylaws in print. You decide on it at the beginning of the session where everyone is involved in the decision. And when I say everyone, I usually just mean the team captains. We have a captain's meeting 3 weeks before the start of the session to iron these things out.
 
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buckshotshoey said:
What's wrong with that? If a player decides to Forfeit, why shouldn't they be punished in some way? That's why you put real players names in there.. they still have to pay their weekly fees.... they are paying NOT to play.. and they get a loss for it. And on top of it, the team loses money at the end during the payout. One of the reasons to keep playing is what you have already mentioned.. points based payouts. Even if you can't win the night, you should at least try to get as many points possible for your team for the payout at the end of the year.

I understand your position, but there's another way to handle it.. let one of their players play twice. Nobody gets a forfeit, everybody gets to play, and the player that didn't show up pays for the guy that plays twice. And yes, you can do that.

But that's not really the scenario that was described in the first post. It was about teams that quit early because they have no chance to win. As long as they pay their nightly fees.... whether they play or not.... then the payouts of the others aren't affected in the least. And quitting before the match is over falls under the rule of conceding a game or a match. It's a sportsmanship violation.

I'm not going to tell you how to run your league, assuming that you really do run a league. It's totally up to you how you want to do it. I myself like to keep the players happy, so I structure the league how they want it. But on the flip side of that coin, they have absolutely no grounds to bitch at me for anything that doesn't go their way.

And the above paragraph is exactly why you have local bylaws in print. You decide on it at the beginning of the session where everyone is involved in the decision. And when I say everyone, I usually just mean the team captains. We have a captain's meeting 3 weeks before the start of the session to iron these things out.
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Because some 5 person teams have 6 or seven players just to field a team reliably each week. Yet they still show up with 4 sometimes. So which of the three players who aren't even present to you award the losses to?

Our players don't quit early because the league is structured with individual payouts not team performance. Also it's a chump move and we as a league would probably warn then exclude them.

We tried letting the other players rotate and play the empty spot and you guessed it. The weakest player in a key match late just couldn't make it. All things considered this could really be the best answer though. Thanks,
 
Someone asked me the other day why i quit league-pool 20yrs ago. There's a bunch of reasons and now i can add nitty crap like this to the pile.
 
Deruki said:
Because some 5 person teams have 6 or seven players just to field a team reliably each week. Yet they still show up with 4 sometimes. So which of the three players who aren't even present to you award the losses to?

Our players don't quit early because the league is structured with individual payouts not team performance. Also it's a chump move and we as a league would probably warn then exclude them.

We tried letting the other players rotate and play the empty spot and you guessed it. The weakest player in a key match late just couldn't make it. All things considered this could really be the best answer though. Thanks,
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May I make another suggestion? Why do you need five player teams? Go to four player teams. Number one, you never have to stay till midnight on a work night. Four man teams are just as fun. And theoretically you could have more teams in the league. When I put the suggestion out to our players, and they tried it for a session, they absolutely love it. It's possible to play all 16 games starting at 7:00 p.m., and be done by 9:30. Normally matches go till about 10:00 p.m..

The downside is if you go to higher level tournaments, it's always five man teams. But, those five men can be chosen from anyone in the local league. There is no team originality requirement. You just need to have played in that local League for the minimum number of weeks.
 
telinoz said:
All verified with BCAPL and FargoRate.

Passed onto the league operator here, they will stop posting false games and will use the WF button.
Once they saw it in writing, no argument.

Cheers for helping out.
Now we can get back to concentrating on playing pool.
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To add another point.

LMS needs to know whether the league EXPECTS all games will be played, and that is a setting when the Operator sets up the division (see below).

There are some league formats for which all games are not necessarily played by design. As an example, you could have a 25-game format that is really a race to 13 games and the match might be over after 19 games.

In that case, answer "no" to this question below. But if it's answered yes, then something must be entered for all the games. It is NEVER OK to use a "dummy" player or player who didn't play. Everything scored as a game must be an actual game played by the correct players. If a game is not played, use WF.

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mikepage said:
To add another point.

LMS needs to know whether the league EXPECTS all games will be played, and that is a setting when the Operator sets up the division (see below).

There are some league formats for which all games are not necessarily played by design. As an example, you could have a 25-game format that is really a race to 13 games and the match might be over after 19 games.

In that case, answer "no" to this question below. But if it's answered yes, then something must be entered for all the games. It is NEVER OK to use a "dummy" player or player who didn't play. Everything scored as a game must be an actual game played by the correct players. If a game is not played, use WF.

View attachment 654734
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Thanks.

What this investigation has shown me is that my local league operator is a bit clueless
And, when asking this question to BCAPL, they referred me to FargoRate as they did not know... Which, is kind of surprising as its their software and system. So, they should be ensuring how FargoRate uses its data...
Also, even the BCAPL own site has no real user guide for this App or a breakdown of what each button means.
The App page just assumes user knowledge as well.
Needs a good polish up.

I bet my league operator barely knows how to use LMS either.
To select that Will all games by played? Option.
As I don't have access to LMS, I can't review its guides and ease of use.
Or the ability to edit games, if wrong.
Like I said in post 1, 10 years this league has been going and who knows how many illegitimate games are in there. I only found out by chance for this, glad I know now so no more rubbish data.
 
telinoz said:
Thanks.

What this investigation has shown me is that my local league operator is a bit clueless
And, when asking this question to BCAPL, they referred me to FargoRate as they did not know... Which, is kind of surprising as its their software and system. So, they should be ensuring how FargoRate uses its data...
Also, even the BCAPL own site has no real user guide for this App or a breakdown of what each button means.
The App page just assumes user knowledge as well.
Needs a good polish up.

I bet my league operator barely knows how to use LMS either.
To select that Will all games by played? Option.
As I don't have access to LMS, I can't review its guides and ease of use.
Or the ability to edit games, if wrong.
Like I said in post 1, 10 years this league has been going and who knows how many illegitimate games are in there. I only found out by chance for this, glad I know now so no more rubbish data.
Click to expand...
It is set up in LMS at the beginning of each session. Here is but one of the options for the league operator to choose...
16598359535251770037047291298396.jpg
 
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