Brunswick Balke collender pocket iron threads.

S

snookered_again

Well-known member
fixing Up this old Brunswick Balke Collener table. it measures 50 x 100 inches, probably made around 1905 give or take a decade.

the long bolts that hold the rail covers on thread into the pocket irons. they thread in but the threads are a bit sloppy.

I was missing 3 bolts and went looking for replacements. realized they are 5/16" x 16 TPI

16 TPI is not a common thread for 5/16 , 18 TPI is.
16TPI is common for 3/8 " bolts.
I have a helicoil kit so I can change them over to 18TPI if I remove them and install thread inserts.

I think can buy that size tap but it's uncommon and about 100 bucks.

thought I'd just make my own bolts but my lathe is all callibrated in metric not standard. I think there is a way, maybe if I buy a new gear or something for my lathe which is a Hercus, a southbend clone. My brother owns a similar lathe and his is standard so he could do it. I guess.
Even if I cut the threads right, and create the missing 3 , the bolt holes still seem quite loose so I'm thinking that installing helicoils to take regular pitch 5/15 bolts is going to be my workaround.

I guess at that time , the bolts were not so standardized or maybe the manufacturer wanted to use an odd thread to prevent others from supplying parts.

The pitch is 1.588 mm in metric. I think the closest feed rate I have is 1.6 mm. ( per revolution)

I think if I were to change the pockets with the irons , the size seems fairly standard. I guess it means that my pocket irons are actually original.
One of the slate bolts is missing and it also has a weird thread. I'll find a workaround, I might be able to get an original bolt, it is not a standard 60 degree thread taper pattern, more like a triangular thread pattern. the head requires a special wrench so I borrowed one.

the "pin wrench I borrowed was actually just a crescent wrench with two pins drilled in through the crescent wrench and welded , so the distance between the pins can be adjusted. Ill copy it and make my own. I thought it was kind of a neat way around the issue of not having the special pin wrench on hand. I can buy that but don't see using it too often..
have others encountered this odd thread pattern on their pockets, 5/16 16 TPI?
 
I'm not a table mechanic, but i am a manual machinist.
A 5/16 - 18 tap should cost less than $10 from a machinist catalog, not $100!

But if you change, i like your helicoil idea - it gets rid of all the old threads and puts in clean new threads.

If you measured the threads with confidence at 1.588mm and you have 1.6mm available in your lathe's threading box, you won't know the difference; especially since you said they are sloppy. If they are not 60 deg threads, then just grind your threading tool to match the old bolts. BTW, common 60 deg threads _are_ triangular? Are you trying to say they might be 45 dg threads or something else? Either way, just grind and hone the threading tool to match the thread profile on an old bolt.

I have several pin wrenches like you describe, but i do not weld the pins in. I use, say, 1/4" dowel pins which are cheap by the box, and grind one end to 5/32" and the other to 3/16" just as an example. The basic 1/4" pin is another size. Then i use whichever side of the crescent wrench has the pin that fits the current mission. Or press out the pins and press in a different size. It's actually better to use a cheapo import wrench(es) since they drill and ream easier than real Crescent tools. :) Which IIRC took carbide drills the time i tried it.

4140 prehard is ideal for shop made bolts.
If you don't get pre-hard (which is still soft enough to cut easily with high speed steel tools) you might as well just go to the scrapyard and get mystery metal.

smt
 
Thank you for the insight SMT.
I think ill install the helicoils, It just means taking the rails off again. maybe I should just do all and then they will fit standard bolts. I found I did have the coils and correct tap for that, and 16 bolts the right size if I change to the standard thread of 18 TPI.
what I meant by triangular threads for the slate bolts is that they aren't normal threads or acme threads, steeper rise on one side than the other, woodwork vices use a pitch a bit like that. things that always get loaded in the same direction. yes I can likely just grind or adjust my tooling to replicate them.

I brought a cheapo "crescent" wrench today, I thought I'd just use drill rod , braise them in , probably good enough, I can heat treat them a little maybe if too soft. I dont see needing it often but I can give the one I borrowed back and make a copy, I thought using a crescent wrench was ingenious and saw it hanging where we play pool , I think a former pool table mechanic made it for the same reason.

I was a bit surprised they could thread slate , especially 120 years ago, maybe there is lead in there , or something , I dont see a tap faring well cutting threads in slate. i was a bit worried if I tighten them too much I could strip one. figured maybe I could wrap a bolt with teflon tape , maybe with a little grease between layers of it, and then set it into JB weld and hope I can get it back out.. That is, if one does strip.. I had the idea I might try to refill the hole and re-drill and re-tap. none of them seemed to strip out and slip so that might be ok.
when the rails tighten there is pool cloth between the slate and the rail but also the rail must be tight or it won't work properly.

a friened has a nice old Burroughs and Watts snooker table and it has steel plates that are incorporated into the covers for the rails. ( steel backed rails) that gives the table a really nice solid quiet bounce. It's beautiful to play on. I was there when he was having it re-felted and got to pick one up, , wow they are really heavy things ! mine re very light covers. Many of the Brunswick Balke collender tables had fancy brass ornaments that screwed into the slate bolts , hiding them. This one has covers instead.

I'm tempted to copy that idea but won't make any permanent changes. I thought of replicating the covers partially from steel hiden with wood, and imbedding some steel plates in under these rail bolt covers .

If I made new rail covers then I could always just store the originals under the table within the structure so they don't get lost or misplaced. That way it wouldnt be a "mod".
It would be a bolt on option that wouldn't devalue it as an antique. I have a pile of steel bars about 1.5 x 5/16 thick, that I could use. an extra 50 lbs or so added to each rail might give it a quieter bounce. It's not bad now.. I'll weigh up the idea a bit more.
On this table the way the rail bolts go through into threaded holes in the slate does solidify the rails, It sort of ties the weight of the two together. its just a diffferent approach than other makers use.

To do a "proper" restoration , Well, someone sprayed the whole frame in a primer then a shellac toner, hiding all the original woodgrain. I experimented and I can dissolve all that added cover up finish and get down to the original Mahogany veneer,, I opted not to pick into that right now. Might need to do it in place, hard to move that frame into my workshop, it's super big and heavy.

This table was free so I'm very happy, there is another one locally for sale, even older, its about 5 K.. It's probably worth restoring the finish properly.
 
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Personally, i think you would be time and effort ahead to make bolts to fit the old threads, especially since you only need 3. It's like literally, maybe an hour's work to make the blanks and thread the first one. Then 10 minute each, max, threading the rest. Then 1/2 hr to set up the dividing head or simple index, dick around to choose the tooling & get the spacing right, and drill for the pin drives. So just less than a couple hours. If you are doing them for someone else and they have to be "perfect" maybe add an hour to the total estimate. Of course always add 1/2 to 1 hour for customer relations and the not-inconsequential time to box and ship.

what I meant by triangular threads for the slate bolts is that they aren't normal threads or acme threads, steeper rise on one side than the other, woodwork vices use a pitch a bit like that. things that always get loaded in the same direction. yes I can likely just grind or adjust my tooling to replicate them.
Click to expand...

Ok, Buttress threads is the name. Though there is not really a standard for any given version.

I was a bit surprised they could thread slate , especially 120 years ago, maybe there is lead in there , or something , I dont see a tap faring well cutting threads in slate. i was a bit worried if I tighten them too much I could strip one. figured maybe I could wrap a bolt with teflon tape , maybe with a little grease between layers of it, and then set it into JB weld and hope I can get it back out.. That is, if one does strip.. I had the idea I might try to refill the hole and re-drill and re-tap. none of them seemed to strip out and slip so that might be ok.
when the rails tighten there is pool cloth between the slate and the rail but also the rail must be tight or it won't work properly.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, BBC used barrel bolts.
They usually filled the holes with mortar or whatever passed for bondo back in the day before bondo was invented.


A long time ago in another state far, far away :)
I used to make tooling, hardware, and sometimes machines for a pool table builder/restore/install mechanic.
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The room is finally mostly done, as in walls torn out, construction, HVAC, wiring, even some plumbing complete, and drywall done.
Guys i used to work with say they are coming up "by the end of this month, if not, then certainly in Dec" to install the hardwood floor.
We'll see. Maybe finally by Christmas. If not this Christmas, then maybe the next. :)

smt
 
thank you for that info. how the slate bolts are captive ( barrel bolts) pic was worth a thousand words.. on mine some of the wood backing the slate went punky and I replaced some but I never did pull the slate off them. maybe those "barrels" can be accessed when the slates are unbolted from the frame. I tried separating mine and gave up , they seemed to be glued to the slate.. I figure someone stored the slates on a concrete floor at some point , the frame had no rot, Just those slate backer frames. i did some "dutchmans" basically replaced what I needed to , parts where the cloth staples into . all the parts are numbered and they match, so I kept what I could of all that.

You must be accessing a pretty well equipped wood shop if you have a sander like that. I repair such equipment as part of my job. In the shop I work in , they have a machine that appears like a sewing machine but it makes a zig zag of what looks like dental floss, its actually a type of glue, it stays in the work,, that's how they hold such intricate veneers together before they are bonded to something thicker.
also a hydraulic veneer press to squeeze it when drying. guillotene cutter is what they use to cut the veneer in sheets.
If you use hide glue than you can attach and you can also detach and move things, unlike titebond.

It woud be interesting to see if my table has any fancy veneer work similar to that. I respect the work you are doing there. It's a real labor of love. I fix antique radios sometimes too, same thing, you have to love doing it because it's almost impossible to do profitably. The satisfaction of doing it well and actually restoring antiques is very satisfying.

I restored all my 100 year old fir floors too, fir is pretty soft so ball drops leave dents so I laid down a thin 12 x 20 ' rug that I found free. I figure it will survive for a few years then maybe get cut away when it's becoming a dog eared trip hazard.

I can have a crack at threading my own bolts. I don't really mind installing the helicoils as the threads are all pretty loose and wobbly but I suppose if I can lock them down then there isn't really any play even though the treads are a sloppy fit.
. Im using it now without some bolts even being there and the irons can't really go anywhere..

the 4 corners seem tipped up a bit high at their outer edges, like I want to push them down a bit but the way they thread into these bolts sets their position. maybe they were intended to be like that, a bit higher than the rails, and slanted upwards slightly.
some of my leather ball nets were a bit broken up, I considered riveting in new nets or replaceing the pockets. I opted to just darn them and they will be ok. I didn 't want to put leather moisturizer, fearing it'll get into the snooker cloth. maybe if yours is still not assembeled it could be a good time to moisturize them.

on most tables those pocket nets go under the table and are fastened out of view but on this table there is no underside access to the slate so I had to fasten the pocket net edges on top of the felt.
 
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