Brunswick Dominion that doesn't play quite right

[k8tdog]

I am in San Diego and have a 20 year old 9' Brunswick Dominion (purchased new) that has never played quite right. Something is off with the rails/pockets, but I don't know what. It was installed by the local dealer and the pockets were double faced. About 4 years ago, I had new simonis installed and at that time a few defects were corrected (like pocket openings not being the same size) and the mechanic seemed to think the super speed rails were still in great condition.

However, something is still off. I don't use it that often, but when I do I want it to feel/react more similar to a diamond/gold crown. At this point, if needed I will dump this table and purchase a different one, but I really don't want to have to do that.

Is there any saving my table? Is there a local mechanic anyone could recommend.

old picture below... I can get better pictures if needed.

 

[rexus31]

Something is off with the rails/pockets, but I don't know what.

This is pretty vague. Can you elaborate on what the issue is?

 

[k8tdog]

I will try... I have been playing on & off for 30+ years. Fargo 585-ish. Something about the pockets is off. I know when I totally miss a shot, I know when I slightly catch a rail and bobble a ball and I know when I made a shot but it doesn't go in. My table is overly punitive in all the wrong ways and feels off. The shelves are not excessively deep, but I can shoot a length of the table shot from a half diamond off the rail into the face of the pocket cut and it will bobble. Some pockets are worse than others. Shots down the rail (which are a weakness of mine) are unpredictable if they will drop.

In addition, when balls contact the rails... again something feels off... but none of the rails seem dead. Currently the table has Simonis 760 and rebound angles seem off from what I get at the local pool halls. I get that each table is a little different when banking, and my table seems consistent within itself, but it is nothing like anything I play on for league or tournaments. Makes it tough to practice. I have been told that there is no way a home/decorative table will ever have the feel of a commercial table because there is less mass behind the rubber. On one hand that makes a little sense, but on the other hand I see really old snooker tables with rails that are not wide and they play just fine.

I wanted to have 4 1/2" pockets and at the time I was told they could add facings, so that is what was done. Looking back, if I had been told that the rails could be extended for a proper 4 1/2" I would have done that.

Maybe the pockets are cut wrong, maybe the rubber is just too different from other tables, I know the facings are a little messed up and of course it could all be in my head, but I don't think so. I am willing to throw a reasonable amount of money at this if I know it can be made to play 'correctly' for whatever that means..... or I can replace it.

If there is any info that would help, I can get pictures and measurements. Overall, very frustrating.

 

[Sheldon]

A VERY qualified mechanic will have to pretty much totally rebuild your rails, probably replacing the sub-rails and rubber and re-cutting all the pocket angles for you to be satisfied with the table. There are only a few people I would trust with this, so it might be really tough and expensive and time consuming to get it done. Even so, you'll still have a home style table with a lot of $ into it. Depending on how attached you are to it, and what you can tolerate paying for a different table, and what kind of deal you can find I would think about replacing it.

 

[rexus31]

I will try... I have been playing on & off for 30+ years. Fargo 585-ish. Something about the pockets is off. I know when I totally miss a shot, I know when I slightly catch a rail and bobble a ball and I know when I made a shot but it doesn't go in. My table is overly punitive in all the wrong ways and feels off. The shelves are not excessively deep, but I can shoot a length of the table shot from a half diamond off the rail into the face of the pocket cut and it will bobble. Some pockets are worse than others. Shots down the rail (which are a weakness of mine) are unpredictable if they will drop.

In addition, when balls contact the rails... again something feels off... but none of the rails seem dead. Currently the table has Simonis 760 and rebound angles seem off from what I get at the local pool halls. I get that each table is a little different when banking, and my table seems consistent within itself, but it is nothing like anything I play on for league or tournaments. Makes it tough to practice. I have been told that there is no way a home/decorative table will ever have the feel of a commercial table because there is less mass behind the rubber. On one hand that makes a little sense, but on the other hand I see really old snooker tables with rails that are not wide and they play just fine.

I wanted to have 4 1/2" pockets and at the time I was told they could add facings, so that is what was done. Looking back, if I had been told that the rails could be extended for a proper 4 1/2" I would have done that.

Maybe the pockets are cut wrong, maybe the rubber is just too different from other tables, I know the facings are a little messed up and of course it could all be in my head, but I don't think so. I am willing to throw a reasonable amount of money at this if I know it can be made to play 'correctly' for whatever that means..... or I can replace it.

If there is any info that would help, I can get pictures and measurements. Overall, very frustrating.

The mouth of the pockets is too wide. The proper way to fix this and tighten the pockets is to add wood at the end of the subrail, recut the pocket openings and install new cushions. It's not cheap but that's the right way to do it.

Some have added facings and adjusted the pocket angle using a sanding disk and jig on a table saw. Some have reported success in doing this but your mileage may vary with this method.

 

[k8tdog]

I want it right and since I am considering trashing a good looking table to purchase another, reasonable cost doesn't scare me. Finding a mechanic that can absolutely do the job might be another story. The only think I can think of worse than purchasing a new table is to spend money on the proper fix and then also need to buy a new table because it still wasn't correct.

 

[k8tdog]

Deals on Diamonds don't seem to be all that readily available.

 

[johnnysd]

I will try... I have been playing on & off for 30+ years. Fargo 585-ish. Something about the pockets is off. I know when I totally miss a shot, I know when I slightly catch a rail and bobble a ball and I know when I made a shot but it doesn't go in. My table is overly punitive in all the wrong ways and feels off. The shelves are not excessively deep, but I can shoot a length of the table shot from a half diamond off the rail into the face of the pocket cut and it will bobble. Some pockets are worse than others. Shots down the rail (which are a weakness of mine) are unpredictable if they will drop.

In addition, when balls contact the rails... again something feels off... but none of the rails seem dead. Currently the table has Simonis 760 and rebound angles seem off from what I get at the local pool halls. I get that each table is a little different when banking, and my table seems consistent within itself, but it is nothing like anything I play on for league or tournaments. Makes it tough to practice. I have been told that there is no way a home/decorative table will ever have the feel of a commercial table because there is less mass behind the rubber. On one hand that makes a little sense, but on the other hand I see really old snooker tables with rails that are not wide and they play just fine.

I wanted to have 4 1/2" pockets and at the time I was told they could add facings, so that is what was done. Looking back, if I had been told that the rails could be extended for a proper 4 1/2" I would have done that.

Maybe the pockets are cut wrong, maybe the rubber is just too different from other tables, I know the facings are a little messed up and of course it could all be in my head, but I don't think so. I am willing to throw a reasonable amount of money at this if I know it can be made to play 'correctly' for whatever that means..... or I can replace it.

If there is any info that would help, I can get pictures and measurements. Overall, very frustrating.

This is my friends table, I can add to the description which hopefully will help. Reading through some other similar threads it seems he will need to completely rebuild the rails but I will share my perception.

I would say the rails are slow in that they seem to absorb too much power or the rails themselves are not quite at the right height. I am not sure if rails should hit at the center point, but whatever is ideal it seems like they hit below that so if you hit hard it seems like it wants to jump off a bit which in turn makes all the angles just off.

He is right about the pockets. They are viscously off. Only a pure hit actually goes in. Not sure if any of that helps but in reality he is right in his assessment that it just feels wrong. I find it distinctly unfun to play on

 

[Sheldon]

Slightly above center, very close to 1-7/16" is what the nose should be at. It can vary a little depending on the angle and thickness of the sub rails. If the main body of the cushion is high or low relative to the nose height, that can change the way they rebound a little. Generally a low nose will cause rails to be springy and balls to hop, too high and they play slow.
Brunswicks are semi-famous for jawing balls, simply adding facings might make the problem worse.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

I wanted to have 4 1/2" pockets and at the time I was told they could add facings, so that is what was done. Looking back, if I had been told that the rails could be extended for a proper 4 1/2" I would have done that.

Maybe the pockets are cut wrong...

I am betting the angles are 143 degrees or worse +, adding the facings closed the throat of the pocket more than it narrowed the mouth of of the pocket= lots of rattles. Just my $0.02.

TFT

 

[k8tdog]

Well, here is some more info and pictures. I measured all of the angles for the pocket cuts and they seem to be really consistent @ 143 degrees (37 degrees is the easier measurement) and the caliper picture measured at 1.404". There is a little dimension at the nose of the rail so I wasn't exactly sure where to measure to.

Anyone up for the challenge? What is an opinion on the cost and most importantly.... can the table be fixed?

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Well, here is some more info and pictures. I measured all of the angles for the pocket cuts and they seem to be really consistent @ 143 degrees (37 degrees is the easier measurement) and the caliper picture measured at 1.404". There is a little dimension at the nose of the rail so I wasn't exactly sure where to measure to.

Anyone up for the challenge? What is an opinion on the cost and most importantly.... can the table be fixed?

I am betting the angles are 143 degrees or worse +, adding the facings closed the throat of the pocket more than it narrowed the mouth of of the pocket= lots of rattles. Just my $0.02.

TFT

Like I said, the throat is closed because of the shims. Subrail extensions and new cushions, pockets cut at 141 degrees with 60a durometer neoprene cushions and WHAMMO, your table will play the best it can. again my $0.02.
No need to replace subrails. The superspeed cushions are a factory fit for that table

TFT

 

[boogieman]

Not really a beginner job, but here is a similar fix I did on my Olhausen: https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/olhausen-rattle-is-this-a-good-fix.525094/
Just posting this so you can get an idea of the issue, the angles are too big.

It's most likely the pocket angles will need fixed, it's a job for a competent mechanic and can be quite pricey. Pricey, but it's a lot of work to do it right. The way I did it isn't right, but it greatly improved my furniture grade table, to the point it plays very well.

Are your rail bolts tight?

Google "diamondizing" and olhausen pocket rattle fix. Add azbilliards to your search terms. Basically, if it's rattling your pocket angles aren't right. Mine were 145 and it was terrible. Only a center pocket hit, and anything over medium speed wouldn't drop. I am not a mechanic, but it seems like you're getting good info in the rest of the thread.

 

[k8tdog]

@ Boogieman. Wow, read the entire thread and you did a fantastic job with your table. I have to be honest, that level of handyman is a bit beyond me... I would need to do the job 3-4 times to get it right and I just don't have that level of energy. However, I bet your solution would work for me as well.

My buddy above (JohnnySD) is pushing me to dump is and get a commercial Diamond of Gold Crown. Still not sure how to proceed.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

@ Boogieman. Wow, read the entire thread and you did a fantastic job with your table. I have to be honest, that level of handyman is a bit beyond me... I would need to do the job 3-4 times to get it right and I just don't have that level of energy. However, I bet your solution would work for me as well.

My buddy above (JohnnySD) is pushing me to dump is and get a commercial Diamond of Gold Crown. Still not sure how to proceed.

The problem is finding someone that can do the work properly in your area. It wont cost anywhere near as much as its gonna for a proper GC or Diamond.

On the other hand: A GC or Diamond will make ya VERY VERY HAPPY!!

TFT

 

[k8tdog]

Maybe RKC will make it out to San Diego?

 

[rexus31]

If it were me, I'd sell the table and get a Gold Crown that's already been sorted out. You're going to dump $1,500 into a table that may not play as good as you want it to after the pocket work is done because the rail design isn't the same as a commercial grade table. You're basically putting lipstick on a pig. If you just want to do away with the rattle, go for it but don't expect the table to play like a Gold Crown or a Diamond. If you want a table that plays like a Gold Crown or Diamond, you'll have to get a Gold Crown or Diamond.

 

[trentfromtoledo]

If it were me, I'd sell the table and get a Gold Crown that's already been sorted out. You're going to dump $1,500 into a table that may not play as good as you want it to after the pocket work is done because the rail design isn't the same as a commercial grade table. You're basically putting lipstick on a pig. If you just want to do away with the rattle, go for it but don't expect the table to play like a Gold Crown or a Diamond. If you want a table that plays like a Gold Crown or Diamond, you'll have to get a Gold Crown or Diamond.

On the other hand: A GC or Diamond will make ya VERY VERY HAPPY!!

TFT

Real talk, not everyone will hear it or like it if they do.

TFT

 

[k8tdog]

Well, 20 years ago, the wife insisted on a table that looked like a nice piece of furniture. Now she understands and is OK with getting a commercial table. I suppose the next step is making a 9' Brunswick Dominion disappear.

Anything I should look out for when trying to find a new table?

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Well, 20 years ago, the wife insisted on a table that looked like a nice piece of furniture. Now she understands and is OK with getting a commercial table. I suppose the next step is making a 9' Brunswick Dominion disappear.

Anything I should look out for when trying to find a new table?

Sell the old one on Craiglist or Facebook Marketplace? Or to a friend? Donate it to a non profit that needs one?

Donny Wessels at West State Billiards is someone reputable in the State of California.

New is the easiest way, but, will cost most money and wait times are LONG.

Buying one off of CL or FB is risky unless you have someone that knows what they are looking at with you to check it over.

Keep us posted! Make a plan and execute it!

TFT

P.s. I sell completely restored tables and will be in California in a month or so! https://www.facebook.com/toledopooltables/photos/?ref=page_internal&tab=album