Confused what profile I need for my cushions replacement (pics included)

[tjlmbklr]

EDITED: Found my answer.

I'll leave this post up in the event it can help someone else. I found a local retailer that had K55 and K66 in stock. I brought a rail there and we sized it up and compared my measurements, we were convinced I had K66 before. And after asking around it seems the 'typo' in 'Championship' is the consistent with a Chinese knock off. So now I am the proud new owner of Championship Tour Edition K66 rubber.


So I measured the nose before I stripped the rails down. I was getting between 1-1/2 with the cloth removed and 1-9/16" with the cloth still on. I was told by Ken at Classic that 1-3/8 to 1-7/16" is what I want. When I pulled the cloth the rubber said "Championship Fleetwood". Ken said that is a K55 profile. This table has no markings and I am 90% sure it may have been a homemade table or at very least a very unknown off brand. One thing it did not have was a staple grove under my rails. So against some peoples opinions, I actually cut a 1/16" deep staple grove in it using a dado stack and my table saw and I feel it turned out quite well. I feel that not being there was raising the nose up that extra 1/16 to 3/32". Makes sense, right?

But I also measured my rubber and unless I measured it wrong the measurements seem to be what Classic Billiards says that K66 should be. HERE

So can you experienced mechanics help me to determine if I need K66 or K55?

Here's the one bad thing, I already threw the old rubber away so all I have is these pics.

Thoughts?

 

[fastone371]

Unfortunately I have no answers for you but I did want to compliment you on your nice, neat, complete, and well thought out post with descriptive pictures. Its a nice change of pace from the "I have a regulation size table, what cushions fit my table" kind of questions.

Im curious why Championship is spelled "Championsihp", I thought I recently saw some Superspeeds here with that same error.

 

[tjlmbklr]

Unfortunately I have no answers for you but I did want to compliment you on your nice, neat, complete, and well thought out post with descriptive pictures. Its a nice change of pace from the "I have a regulation size table, what cushions fit my table" kind of questions.



Im curious why Championship is spelled "Championsihp", I thought I recently saw some Superspeeds here with that same error.

Thank you. Over doing information in my post is kinda my MO.

I'll take the 'bump' though.

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[bradsh98]

So I measured the nose before I stripped the rails down. I was getting between 1-1/2 with the cloth removed and 1-9/16" with the cloth still on. I was told by Ken at Classic that 1-3/8 to 1-7/16" is what I want. When I pulled the cloth the rubber said "Championship Fleetwood". Ken said that is a K55 profile. This table has no markings and I am 90% sure it may have been a homemade table or at very least a very unknown off brand. One thing it did not have was a staple grove under my rails. So against some peoples opinions, I actually cut a 1/16" deep staple grove in it using a dado stack and my table saw and I feel it turned out quite well. I feel that not being there was raising the nose up that extra 1/16 to 3/32". Makes sense, right?

But I also measured my rubber and unless I measured it wrong the measurements seem to be what Classic Billiards says that K66 should be. HERE

So can you experienced mechanics help me to determine if I need K66 or K55?

Here's the one bad thing, I already threw the old rubber away so all I have is these pics.

Thoughts?

What is the thickness of the sub-rail (from bottom of rail, to top of sub-rail)?

Generally, installing K66 cushions on a table that was designed for K55 cushions will result in the nose height being 1/16" high (or 1 1/2", in most cases).

I am a bit curious of your measurement discrepancy between the cloth installed and cloth removed.. Were the measurements taken from the same rail, in the same location? There could be nose height deviation across all 6 rails. Also, was the rail bolted down when you measured? There is also a chance that the rails could have a bow, resulting in a flawed measurement.

I'm not suggesting that your measurements are inaccurate, just trying to rule out the possibility.

 

[tjlmbklr]

What is the thickness of the sub-rail (from bottom of rail, to top of sub-rail)?



Generally, installing K66 cushions on a table that was designed for K55 cushions will result in the nose height being 1/16" high (or 1 1/2", in most cases).



I am a bit curious of your measurement discrepancy between the cloth installed and cloth removed.. Were the measurements taken from the same rail, in the same location? There could be nose height deviation across all 6 rails. Also, was the rail bolted down when you measured? There is also a chance that the rails could have a bow, resulting in a flawed measurement.



I'm not suggesting that your measurements are inaccurate, just trying to rule out the possibility.

I'm 100% certain that the discrepancy between the measurements of the cloth on and the cloth off is because when the cloth wraps to the bottom of the rail with the Staples in it it raised it up about 1/16+ of an inch. That's why I decided to cut a staple groove into the rail bottoms. By doing that the rail will sit completely flat and will not be slightly tilted up because of the cloth and Staples. Does that make sense?

I should be able to get you that measurement in about 45 minutes because I'm actually taking the rails to a friend's house that has a dual bevel miter saw and I'm going to cut my pocket down angles to 12 degrees today.

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[Sheldon]

I'm 100% certain that the discrepancy between the measurements of the cloth on and the cloth off is because when the cloth wraps to the bottom of the rail with the Staples in it it raised it up about 1/16+ of an inch. That's why I decided to cut a staple groove into the rail bottoms. By doing that the rail will sit completely flat and will not be slightly tilted up because of the cloth and Staples. Does that make sense?

Looks like you have it figured out. I wish I could be of more help, but I don't know about that rubber.

 

[tjlmbklr]

Looks like you have it figured out.

Seemingly, but what's with the typo? Was that actually a k55 rubber or a knock off brand?

I'm just needing to know if I indeed need K55, or K66.

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[trentfromtoledo]

Those are interesting for sure. It looks like that is a K55 from your measurements. Diamond Professional's used to come with that label of Championship cushions. Never seen a factory Olhausen with K55 cushions. From the looks of removal I would say they were original to the table?

Have you reached out to Olhausen? I have heard they are sometimes helpful in figuring things out.


TFT

Seemingly, but what's with the typo? Was that actually a k55 rubber or a knock off brand?

I'm just needing to know if I indeed need K55, or K66.

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[tjlmbklr]

Those are interesting for sure. It looks like that is a K55 from your measurements. Diamond Professional's used to come with that label of Championship cushions. Never seen a factory Olhausen with K55 cushions. From the looks of removal I would say they were original to the table?



Have you reached out to Olhausen? I have heard they are sometimes helpful in figuring things out.





TFT

This wasnt an Olhausen. I did want to do Accu-fast on it though but what I've been told is all Olhausens are K66. And I'm 90% sure that I'm k55.

I just need to be 100% sure before I order whatever I order.

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[trentfromtoledo]

Oh ok, no olhausen.

My rep, Bill D over at Championship just got back to me and said that cushion is K55. Like I said, those used to be on Diamond Pro's. As Bradshaw said, the nose height is a lil high for k55. Good luck!:thumbup:


TFT

This wasnt an Olhausen. I did want to do Accu-fast on it though but what I've been told is all Olhausens are K66. And I'm 90% sure that I'm k55.

I just need to be 100% sure before I order whatever I order.

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[tjlmbklr]

Oh ok, no olhausen.



My rep, Bill D over at Championship just got back to me and said that cushion is K55. Like I said, those used to be on Diamond Pro's. As Bradshaw said, the nose height is a lil high for k55. Good luck!





TFT

That is consistent with Ken from classic. But still confused about the typo. Knock-offs?

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[trentfromtoledo]

Very little chance they were knock offs, not a whole lot of money in knock off champ cushions.....


tft

That is consistent with Ken from classic. But still confused about the typo. Knock-offs?

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[tjlmbklr]

Very little chance they were knock offs, not a whole lot of money in knock off champ cushions.....





tft

Agreed. It's just weird that a typo like that could go on without notice. Hopefully they weren't mistakes worth a lot of money like that famous airplane stamp printed upside down, because I threw them out.

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[trentfromtoledo]

can you measure the degree of angle of the subrail bevel? Or as Bradshaw asked how thick the rails are?? both could help you figure it out.

TFT

This wasnt an Olhausen. I did want to do Accu-fast on it though but what I've been told is all Olhausens are K66. And I'm 90% sure that I'm k55.

I just need to be 100% sure before I order whatever I order.

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[tjlmbklr]

can you measure the degree of angle of the subrail bevel? Or as Bradshaw asked how thick the rails are?? both could help you figure it out.



TFT

Sure thing. I was going to get Bradshaw's measurement yesterday but time got away from me then I realized, what does he mean "from bottom of rail, to top of sub-rail"? I know a lot about pool tables but not everything. What exactly does he/you want, any sample pics? Also, I left my digital angle finder at my friend's yesterday because we were cutting the pocket angles to 141/102° and 12° to Diamondize them. I have a el' cheapo plastic one I can try to get a measurement with, but no guarantee it will be accurate.

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[tjlmbklr]

can you measure the degree of angle of the subrail bevel? Or as Bradshaw asked how thick the rails are?? both could help you figure it out.

TFT

Here's what I have. The angle (depending what way you read it) is 73°/107° and the rail height is 1-5/8"

 

[trentfromtoledo]

to Diamondize them.
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Keep in mind your tables pockets will not play like a diamond at all.
The opening will of course be procut width/ opening angles, but, the
down angle and shelf are completely different. Hence, not playing like
a diamond at all, I think that term should not be used in this situation

The from the bottom of the rail to the top of the subrail. no the top of
where you put your hand. infront of the dado( where the featherstrip goes)

that is not the right angle measurement.
From what I can tell, that rail should get k66. just my opinion.



The

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Here's what I have. The angle (depending what way you read it) is 73°/107° and the rail height is 1-5/8"

The back of the rail and the subrail are the same height.

Anyways, I am stickin with what I said. I think from what I can see that k66. I might be wrong, but, I would like to hear why, not just that I am wrong.

TFT

 

[trentfromtoledo]

Last question!

Do you think the Fleetwoods are the original cushion? You took them off, can you judge from taking them off??

TFT

 

[tjlmbklr]

I know there is no making any table play like a Diamond but there is making tables play better than they were and that is where the phrase Diamondizing came from.

My pocket angles are 141° for the corners and 102° for the sides and then I cut the down angle to 12°. I will also be extending the rails to make them 1/2 tighter. Aside from the shelf depth it will be very close, but again, not a Diamond.

I found a local vendor that has both K55 and K66 in stock. He is going to let me bring a rail in to see what works best. Unfortunately he can't match Classic Billiards price but said he can take 15% off. At least I know I'll walk out with the right rubber and it will be ready to go on the table today .....well, not today, still needs a few coats of matte lacquer.

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