Dayton cue ferrule

S

schoonerboy

Registered
Hi all, I was playing league Tuesday night and I noticed my hits were sounding funny. After my second game I switched out to the other shaft. Upon inspection after playing I found the ferrule had come loose. It can be twisted freely around and pulled up about an 1/8". What is the safest method to remove it the rest of the way to re-glue? Is denatured alcohol safe to use or is there another solvent that is safer to use if necessary? For surface prep before re-assembly what grit sand paper is best, is there a a good way to clean the inside of the ferrule? After applying glue how much pressure should there be on the ferrule? Basically what I'm thinking is:

1. Expose as much of the dowel as possible, drip some denatured alcohol into the opening to loosen up the rest of the glue, twist and gently pull the ferrule the rest of the way out.

2. Lightly sand the dowel with some 600 grit and cut down a piper cleaner to fit inside the ferrule to prep. Clean with alcohol

3. Have a beer

4. Dry fit ferrule, check for run out, index shaft and ferrule

5. Apply glue and re-assemble.

6. Have another beer?

Any tips or hints would be greatly appreciated.
 
simple fix

Items 1,2,4, and 5 need to be replaced with: "Have another Beer" and an extra item should be inserted: take to a cue repairman for a new ferrule/tip installation. Your "fix" is most likely a waste of your time when you can be better served to just have another beer. Without a lathe, and a new ferrule, and some skills at cue repairs, you may accomplish a weak repair at best. Alcohol MAY dissolve older carpenter glues. ANy epoxy will be unfazed by it. If the cue is old, with unknown history, and the tenon was ever replaced, you may loosen that up and be in for more repairs. Often tenons are installed with carpenter glue. But ferrules: they were installed with epoxy, carpenter glue, and if quite old: hide glue. Most ferrules nowadays are installed with some sort of epoxy.
A good repairman will make sure the tenon has glue channels cut in, and often will cut threads onto the tenon to accept a threaded solid capped ferrule. He will make sure the ferrule makes a snug fit onto the tenon. And recut a square shoulder on both the end of the shaft and the ferrule base for a perfect mating. It sounds like that old ferrule is already loosey goosey. Not good.
Is the cue worth repairing properly? You have the skill set to best decide that. Best wishes.
 
Well I have more time than money at the moment (its off season for me) and I have access to a lathe. Although its a metal lathe. If it was in fact glued with epoxy I could some use acetone instead, but I wasn't sure how that would affect the wood.
 
just being honest

Even with a metal lathe, it takes knowledge and tooling for cue work. You may destroy your shaft with a metal lathe if you do not have the proper bushings and support for the shaft that must pass through the spindle and hang out the left side of the lathe. the moment you begin to work on the shaft, the rotation will either gouge up your shaft or worse. You should see those shafts whip, then shatter!
I know you think I am trying to drum up business for a cue repairman/maker, but in reality if you want to do a nice job it may take you a week before you first experiment on junk shaft wood, and work out the kinks. When I learned how, I made a bunch of practice shafts out of 1/2 inch diameter dowels and cut tenons on them, installed a ferrule, cut it to the shaft size, and installed tips. So you may need to also waste a bunch of new ferrules and tips too.
Your old ferrule is junk, if it is loose on the tenon it is scrap. Trying to use a gob of epoxy to hold on a loose ferrule is a waste of time. It will eventually fail. And likely look ugly too.
By the way, I started my cue work career by owning a metal lathe and wanting to fix my own playing cue. I did not know of any forum to provide advice back then. I got to see that shaft whip and explode first hand. It spun perfect for a few seconds and looked totally safe, then BOOM ! Now, ten years and maybe $20K later I do make cues. And I try to warn others about the learning curve.
And also: do not use chemicals to loosen the glue, spin the shaft and hold onto the ferrule with a piece of thick leather. Do this carefully! It often will heat up from the friction, and melt the epoxy, then come off. Depending on what kind of ferrule it is, it may heat up and turn the ferrule into a gooey chewing gum. Good Luck!
 
I am aware of these problems and will taking measures to prevent them. On the join end I have a cheap delrin JP I was gonna screw in and then turn down so that's its centered to the shaft. As for as a guide I was thinking about getting a tapered bearing and making something. The old ferrule is still a very tight fit on the tenon so I don't believe it would be a waste of time to re-use it. I also have another shaft for my old cue with a cracked ferrule that I would like to fix.

In regards to the steep learning curve, I am very well aware of that, but do not feel like a small project like this is currently beyond me as long as I go about it in a methodical manner. And if it doesn't produce a good result I will do it again then I'll figure out what went wrong and do it again =)

Thank you about you advice about not using a solvent. I figured either of those would wick moisture out of the wood.

What glue would you use for an ivory ferrule? I have g5 and west systems down at the shop.

To conclude here's a little philosophy of mine:

Most of the time its not about how smart you are or what you know, its about being able to ask the right questions of yourself and others.
 
If the reason you dont want to take to a repairman because money is tight, sounds like your going to spend more on prepping the metal for the repair- if it doesnt go well, you have to buy another ferrule & tip anyway!

Id just take to repairman!
 
Its not that money is tight as much as I have the time and want to do it myself. Anyways I mounted a 5/8" bearing in the rest and machined a delrin sleeve that adapts to the end of the shaft 2 inches back from the tenon. I turned down a crappy joint protector to hold the other end. With this setup the run-out was + or - .0025" at the end of the shaft, which I feel is within normal tolerances, please correct me if I'm mistaken.
 
Go for it.
You've got a better understanding of the process than these guys are giving you credit for. It's not rocket science.
You're already ahead of the game in that you've done what a lot of others don't.
You've thought it all the way through.
I also believe that you are someone who will learn from their mistakes.

If I may, I'd like to offer a tip.
While the ferrule is still on the shaft, find the point where it 'trues up' as close to perfect as possible then mark the shaft and the ferrule so you can install it where your marks line-up. It will save you some headaches & work.
 
Well that was a fun project and a learning experience although I still have a few little things to do. On the first attempt of glueing the ferrule back on I waited too long and didn't get the ferrule all the way on before the glue caught. In the process of removing it I cracked the tenon (friends can me Popeye). Now I know why it easier to discard the ferrule by turning it off and starting with a new one. However I thought I could still salvage it.

I faced off the rest of the tenon and bored a 5/16" hole 7/8" into the end of the shaft. Then I turned down a maple dowel to fit and glued it in. After I took the old ferrule and bored out the old material to the same dimensions. After the glue set on the dowel I coated it with some super glue and turned it down to fit the ferrule and faced off edge of the shaft again. I put a thin spartan coat of epoxy on this time and quickly got pressed together. Unfortunately I think I too much of the epoxy off the joint since there's just a slight gap around the circumference. If you can hold the tip up to a light you can just barely see it. Although I can't feel it with my fingers if I ran a fingernail across it I can detect it. So, I think I will put a thin coat of epoxy on it before I turn it the ferrule down a final time. The ferrule came out to +/- .0015" of run-out after I released it from so camp so I was pretty happy about that.

Anyways, I just hit a couple games with it and it feels fine. It actually feels like it hits stiffer than the other shaft. I broke with it a few times and nothing exploded so its passed the strength test for now.

I still have a few questions that I'm curious about though.

1. What is the proper method of determining dowel length if you are replacing a broken tenon. I figured I would match what was going into the ferrule and 7/8" into the shaft, was this too much/little, what other concerns are there?

2. What is the minimum recommended wall thickness for a capped and non threaded Ivory ferrule? Are there any tips or tricks for polishing it out?

I'll probably think of more later, but would appreciate any and all feedback.
 
I can see that I should be asking more questions before giving advice.
Now we're talking ivory ferrules and capped ferrules which were not in my original vision of your issue.
The important thing here is that you didn't shy away from the task and you got the job done. Very few get it totally right the first time. Also, you learned a great deal from the experience.

As far as the gap at the base of the ferrule, if I'm reading you correctly, there's not much you can do about it now other than destroying the ferrule by turning it off and starting over. That's up to you. If you have a solid bond and the shaft is playing well, I'd leave it be. For now anyway.

The gap at the bottom of the ferrule is equal to the amount of the tenon being too long. A 'dry-fit' would have helped you here. You should employ a 'dry-fit' in any assembly in cues (and elsewhere) to insure that your parts will fit properly before using the epoxy.
You mentioned using CA at some point. I'm going to suggest that you save the CA for tips as it has no place in a ferrule install. It's too brittle, breaks down with impact, particularly when used in a 'shear' application and has a limited 'use-life'. If you're repairing a vase and don't handle it everyday, it may last forever. If you use it in a shear application btwn the ferrule and the tenon and are hammering on it everyday, it will let eventually let loose.
Epoxy is the better adhesive.

On capped ferrules, you want a glue-relief hole through the cap of the ferrule to allow excess epoxy & air to escape as you install the ferrule. They are generally no larger than .062" and will seal themselves as the epoxy squishes out. Otherwise, you risk hydraulicing the sidewall of the ferrule, depending on it's composition and this trapped air/epoxy can prevent you from 'bottoming' the ferrule to the shoulder of the shaft. This may be the cause of the gap you now have or the tenon was just a smidge too long. A dry-fit and a glue-relief would have prevented this.

There are many epoxies available. Some will 'kick' quicker than others. Some are stronger than others. Never be in a hurry in any cue repair. The slower setting epoxies are generally stronger and will give you more working time.

The important thing here is that you made the effort and got the job done.
The bonus is that you learned something in the process.
My guess is that your next one will be even better.
 
schoonerboy said:
....
I still have a few questions that I'm curious about though.

1. What is the proper method of determining dowel length if you are replacing a broken tenon. I figured I would match what was going into the ferrule and 7/8" into the shaft, was this too much/little, what other concerns are there?

...
Click to expand...

I don't know what a "proper method of determining dowel length" would be, but I go deeper in the shaft than you did. An inch and a half deep sounds about right to me, maybe even a touch longer. Also, I bore the hole larger than the final size of the tenon, then after the install make a truing cut on the exposed portion of the tenon to get it to final size.

Kelly
 
Kelly_Guy said:
I don't know what a "proper method of determining dowel length" would be, but I go deeper in the shaft than you did. An inch and a half deep sounds about right to me, maybe even a touch longer. Also, I bore the hole larger than the final size of the tenon, then after the install make a truing cut on the exposed portion of the tenon to get it to final size.

Kelly
Click to expand...

This is what I did, but next time i'll go deeper. Thanks for the advice.

I used g5 epoxy to glue it up all, I put a thin coat of CA on the exposed portion of the ca before turning it to see what i was turning off easier. I think you got it with the glue release hole, I was being stubborn about saving the tip and didn't remove it. Next time I'll plan the work so I can use west systems 105/205 instead of the g5. But for this time I wanted to make sure it was done before today for league.
 
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