Fouls and ethics

supergreenman

supergreenman

truly addicted
Silver Member
I was jsut reading the thread where they were discussing a foul that Efren made and wasn't called on it and it made me think of a situation that happened last night when I was playing league.

I Broke and the CB left the table. My opponent came to the table and was eyeing up a shot at the foot of the table. His captain mentioned to him that he had to hit the cb from behind the line, but it seemed to go over his head. I let that little bit of coaching go. Coaching is not allowed in this league. So he puts the CB down in the middle of the table and I wait for him to shoot, then call a foul on him.

I know it's not my responsibility to advise him of the rules, but after I called the foul on him I felt it was a little unsportsman like on my part to not warn him he was about to foul.

What do you think.
 
According to the world standardized rules:

3.10 CUE BALL IN HAND BEHIND THE HEAD STRING
This situation applies in specific games whereby the opening break is administered or a player’s scratching is penalized by the incoming player having cue ball in hand behind the head string. The incoming player may place the cue ball anywhere behind the head string. The shooting player may shoot at any object ball as long as the base of the object ball is on or below the head string. He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball. The base of the ball (the point of the ball touching the table) determines whether it is above or below the head string. If the incoming player inadvertently places the cue ball on or below the head string, the referee or the op-posing player must inform the shooting player of improper positioning of the cue ball before the shot is made. If the opposing player does not so inform the shooting player before the shot is made, the shot is considered legal. If the shooting player is informed of improper positioning, he must then reposition the cue ball. If a player positions the cue ball completely and obviously outside the kitchen and shoots the cue ball, it is a foul. (Refer to rule 2.21) When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, it remains in hand (not in play) until the player strikes the cue ball with his cue tip. The cue ball may be adjusted by the player’s hand, cue, etc., so long as it remains in hand. Once the cue ball is in play per the above, it may not be impeded in any way by the player; to do so is to commit a foul. Additionally, if the shot fails to contact a legal object ball or fails to drive the cue ball over the head string, the shot is a foul and the opposing player has ball in hand according to the specific game rules.

If he placed the cue ball down in the middle of the table, I would say you made the right decision/call. Under the rules, you are not obligated to warn him unless he's somewhat close to the kitchen. There seems to be some latitude with their wording of "completely and obviously ourside the kitchen", but from the way you describe it, this wasn't the case.
 
supergreenman said:
I was jsut reading the thread where they were discussing a foul that Efren made and wasn't called on it and it made me think of a situation that happened last night when I was playing league.

I Broke and the CB left the table. My opponent came to the table and was eyeing up a shot at the foot of the table. His captain mentioned to him that he had to hit the cb from behind the line, but it seemed to go over his head. I let that little bit of coaching go. Coaching is not allowed in this league. So he puts the CB down in the middle of the table and I wait for him to shoot, then call a foul on him.

I know it's not my responsibility to advise him of the rules, but after I called the foul on him I felt it was a little unsportsman like on my part to not warn him he was about to foul.

What do you think.
Click to expand...

I used to worry about this, but nowadays I never inform someone if they're about to foul. It's up to them to know the rules, not up to me to tell them. If they have a problem with that then they can go to hell. I'm the first guy to call a foul on myself and I never give anyone a 'slug' rack.

Like you, I would have let the coaching go, though. The only time I would ever worry about this would be if I was playing some real players who should know better. On a regular Tuesday night, it's not worth it.
 
I will try to warn my opponent if they are getting ready to commit a foul unknowingly, not only b/c my conscience tell me to, but also in the hopes that they might reciprocate if the reverse situation arises. What I have found, though, is that very few people will warn you when you're getting ready to do something stupid. In their defense, though, this WOULD be considered a mental error, and you ARE competing on the mental front as well as the physical. I say that you should do what your conscience tells you to. It sounds like your conscience is grumbling over this, which I think is a good thing, so that pretty much answers the question :)

Good luck!
 
In our league, there are not referrees for a match unless you call someone to ref a shot. So, the rules I personnally use are:
- if I know I fouled, I tell the other person and give them BIH
- if the opponent inadvertently moves a ball on the table, I put it back to the correct spot, not to a spot that benefits me (I've seen that BS before)
- if they are about to committ an obvious foul, I'll let them know (most commonly a push shot where I play). If they insist on doing the shot, I'll call a ref.
- coaching is not allowed, but I've never seen anyone call it during league nights.

In this case, their own team-mate said don't shoot from there. They did. I would of called them on it also.

If the opponent refuses to admit to an obvious foul, I say something along these lines loudly enough for people to hear:
"If you want to cheat that's fine. I personally would never ruin my reputation by cheating in pool like you just have. My reputation is much more important to me then a lousy league pool game".
 
I'm all for being a good sport, but you can't count on others to return the "sporting" favor. That's why the rules address these types of issues.

A few years ago, I was shooting on a league with some buddies who are more of a drinking team than a pool team. Most of my teammates didn't even know league rules before the league began. It also didn't help that they distributed rulebooks around 3 months into the league. Anyway, one night, I hook myself on my out ball before the 8. Seeing an opportunity, I go over to my case, pull out my jump cue, call my shot, and proceed to make a table-length jump-bank and get position on the 8. As my teammates hoot and holler for my shot, the guy I'm playing steps up to the table and says "foul!". What? "Oh, there's a rule in this league that no jump cues are allowed." Yes, it's ultimately my responsibility to know the rules under which I'm playing, but this rule isn't a "standard" rule, it's more of a local-league rule. The guy was like a giggling schoolgirl that he had "caught me". I think he ended up missing and I won the game anyway.
 
supergreenman said:
I was jsut reading the thread where they were discussing a foul that Efren made and wasn't called on it and it made me think of a situation that happened last night when I was playing league.

I Broke and the CB left the table. My opponent came to the table and was eyeing up a shot at the foot of the table. His captain mentioned to him that he had to hit the cb from behind the line, but it seemed to go over his head. I let that little bit of coaching go. Coaching is not allowed in this league. So he puts the CB down in the middle of the table and I wait for him to shoot, then call a foul on him.

I know it's not my responsibility to advise him of the rules, but after I called the foul on him I felt it was a little unsportsman like on my part to not warn him he was about to foul.

What do you think.
Click to expand...

http://www.poolplayers.com/tmanual.pdf

I think that if you are playing APA, and you look on Page 25, section 11. COACHING, that informing a player what category of balls hit, or where to put the cue ball is not a foul. Furthermore, he gave him a timeout, and he can say anything at any time, during that time out. Even as he is in mid stroke.

That said, I have seen people call ball in hand fouls for doing just what you said, between two TAP SL7s (much better than APA 7s, on the whole) during a hill hill match. Yikes!
 
So far as coaching, in general if there is a new player who does not know the rules, around here we will "bend the rules" and the other players will tell them their options and warn them of possible fouls before they shoot, answer their questions about rules, etc. This is for league or money tournaments.

And for a BCA rules money tournament I run, if there is someone new who shows up who does not know BCA rules, I will say to their opponent(s) that the person does not know the rules and ask if they could please help them with the rules. I tell them this is optional and they don't have to. But usually most players are helpful and glad to teach other players the rules even while playing against them in a money tournament. They will call fouls against themselves and explain to their opponent why it was a foul, etc.

But if these same people are playing against someone who *should* know the rules, then that is a different story. They go by the book, no coaching, don't always call fouls on themselves, etc.

Then I advise the local players around here to always call fouls on themselves. This is because someday they may find themselves playing in a regional tournament with a ref and fouls will be noticed and called. So they should learn to avoid fouls now.

And I will usually call fouls on myself for the same reason. The exception is if I am playing someone who knows the rules and is not watching the game, on their cell phone, etc. Then I will not point out the foul because they should have been watching. After they shoot, I then tell them they had ball-in-hand.
 
i dont know........i mean i want to win....but i want to win at the table. I think i probably would have told the guy he had to shoot behind the line.....if he didnt then id call a foul. I usually try to bring up what i think is a foul situation (push shots, close hits, etc)......before my opponent shoots it, so its out there and everybody is aware of it. Waiting to let someone do something wrong (especially the jump cue story)......to me its just a crappy way to win imho
 
Regardless of the situation and rules;

If you don't set the "correct example", how will anyone know what they should be doing when they are in that situation?
 
supergreenman said:
I was jsut reading the thread where they were discussing a foul that Efren made and wasn't called on it and it made me think of a situation that happened last night when I was playing league.

I Broke and the CB left the table. My opponent came to the table and was eyeing up a shot at the foot of the table. His captain mentioned to him that he had to hit the cb from behind the line, but it seemed to go over his head. I let that little bit of coaching go. Coaching is not allowed in this league. So he puts the CB down in the middle of the table and I wait for him to shoot, then call a foul on him.

I know it's not my responsibility to advise him of the rules, but after I called the foul on him I felt it was a little unsportsman like on my part to not warn him he was about to foul.

What do you think.
Click to expand...


That's a tough one James, and I don't blame you for feeling a little bad. On the other hand, I don't exactly feel sorry for your opponent considering his captain had already warned him about placing the CB behind the line. If he didn't listen to his captain who's to say he is gonna listen to you? I guess you live and you learn.
 
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