GC IV Pocket angle correction ?

CLAUD

CLAUD

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have made an agreement to purchase a GC IV oversize 8 from a friend who will have a Diamond delivered in a couple of months. He is the second owner. It was eye candy the original purchaser used to fill up space and was seldom used. He has had it a couple of years and the original cloth is still in good shape. I have lusted after a Gold Crown for a long time. This will be my forever table. It is unmodified.

I plan on changing the cushions, as a precaution, and cloth because I'm not crazy about the color. The pockets are the original 5" corners and 5 1/2" sides. I only want to reduce them to 4 3/4 " an 5 1/4". I would be happy with 4 1/2 but most of the group who will play on this table will be frustrated by anything smaller than 4 3/4.

Now to the point. Should the pocket angle be changed to account for this decrease in throat size and if so what should the new angle be to play as it should ?

I have searched the wealth of information on this forum to no avail.
 
I would recommend 4.5" and 5". A qualified mechanic should know what the appropriate pocket angle should be. It should be around 142°-143°. Don't forget down angle. I believe that should be 12°-15°. There's plenty on this site regarding pocket geometry. Perhaps you didn't look hard enough although you shouldn't have to look all that hard.
 
CLAUD said:
I have made an agreement to purchase a GC IV oversize 8 from a friend who will have a Diamond delivered in a couple of months. He is the second owner. It was eye candy the original purchaser used to fill up space and was seldom used. He has had it a couple of years and the original cloth is still in good shape. I have lusted after a Gold Crown for a long time. This will be my forever table. It is unmodified.

I plan on changing the cushions, as a precaution, and cloth because I'm not crazy about the color. The pockets are the original 5" corners and 5 1/2" sides. I only want to reduce them to 4 3/4 " an 5 1/4". I would be happy with 4 1/2 but most of the group who will play on this table will be frustrated by anything smaller than 4 3/4.

Now to the point. Should the pocket angle be changed to account for this decrease in throat size and if so what should the new angle be to play as it should ?

I have searched the wealth of information on this forum to no avail.
Click to expand...
There is a thread going on right now... in this forum section...about the subject....

PLEASE EXPLAIN POCKET ANGLES FOR SMALLER POCKETS

i had a recent discussion with a friend about this but neither of us are experts so for the experts how does a pocket dimensions ie facing angle /shelf depth/whatever else i should be asking change when the distance from rubber/pocket point...
forums.azbilliards.com
 
rexus31 said:
I would recommend 4.5" and 5". A qualified mechanic should know what the appropriate pocket angle should be. It should be around 142°-143°. Don't forget down angle. I believe that should be 12°-15°. There's plenty on this site regarding pocket geometry. Perhaps you didn't look hard enough although you shouldn't have to look all that hard.
Click to expand...
Thank you! And yes I will use a mechanic to move it and set it back up. I have yet to determine who is the best within reasonable distance, but I have a little time to figure it out.

I will search the forum some more. I'm a little cautious and want to be educated so I can hopefully separate the qualified from the hacks.
 
CLAUD said:
I will search the forum some more. I'm a little cautious and want to be educated so I can hopefully separate the qualified from the hacks.
Click to expand...
The first question I would ask: What method do you use to tighten the pockets? If the answer is, "Add facings (shims).", the guy is most likely a hack. You want the guy who answers, 'I add wood to the ends of the subrails and recut the pockets." Unfortunately, there's not a lot of mechanics out there that know how to do this properly.
 
Last edited:
buckshotshoey said:
There is a thread going on right now... in this forum section...about the subject....

PLEASE EXPLAIN POCKET ANGLES FOR SMALLER POCKETS

i had a recent discussion with a friend about this but neither of us are experts so for the experts how does a pocket dimensions ie facing angle /shelf depth/whatever else i should be asking change when the distance from rubber/pocket point...
forums.azbilliards.com
Click to expand...
Thanks again, I saw that already, but it deals with examples. I understand that the angle must change as the pocket size changes to play properly, thus my question. I have no experience in table mechanics and don't plan on doing the work myself, but I want to know a few things so I can intelligently discuss my expectations.

I thought, perhaps incorrectly, that there was a chart or formula, for the most popular tables. In essence, if I need to reduce the pocket size by a given amount then the angle should change by a certain degree or to a certain degree. Since starting angles are different for Gold Crowns, than say, Olhausens or Diamonds.

I will continue to search and discuss with local mechanics as I find them. A previous query about qualified local mechanics in my area yielded no response. As time permits I will talk to the local pool hall owners to see who they use.

Thanks again for your reply.
 
rexus31 said:
The first question I would ask: What method do you use to tighten the pockets? If the answer is, "Add facings (shims).", the guy is most likely a hack. You want the guy who answers, 'I add wood to the end subrails and recut the pockets." Unfortunately, there's not a lot of mechanics out there than know how to do this properly.
Click to expand...
Thank you!
 
CLAUD said:
I have made an agreement to purchase a GC IV oversize 8 from a friend who will have a Diamond delivered in a couple of months. He is the second owner. It was eye candy the original purchaser used to fill up space and was seldom used. He has had it a couple of years and the original cloth is still in good shape. I have lusted after a Gold Crown for a long time. This will be my forever table. It is unmodified.

I plan on changing the cushions, as a precaution, and cloth because I'm not crazy about the color. The pockets are the original 5" corners and 5 1/2" sides. I only want to reduce them to 4 3/4 " an 5 1/4". I would be happy with 4 1/2 but most of the group who will play on this table will be frustrated by anything smaller than 4 3/4.

Now to the point. Should the pocket angle be changed to account for this decrease in throat size and if so what should the new angle be to play as it should ?

I have searched the wealth of information on this forum to no avail.
Click to expand...
One keyword to add to your search is "diamondize" and "diamondized"

While you're not really wanting to diamondize the table, this is one way it is refered to on the forum. Those threads have a lot of discussion on the matter. "extending subrails" and "subrail extension" is another search term that may get you more results.
 
CLAUD said:
Thanks again, I saw that already, but it deals with examples. I understand that the angle must change as the pocket size changes to play properly, thus my question. I have no experience in table mechanics and don't plan on doing the work myself, but I want to know a few things so I can intelligently discuss my expectations.

I thought, perhaps incorrectly, that there was a chart or formula, for the most popular tables. In essence, if I need to reduce the pocket size by a given amount then the angle should change by a certain degree or to a certain degree. Since starting angles are different for Gold Crowns, than say, Olhausens or Diamonds.

I will continue to search and discuss with local mechanics as I find them. A previous query about qualified local mechanics in my area yielded no response. As time permits I will talk to the local pool hall owners to see who they use.

Thanks again for your reply.
Click to expand...

I think this thread will help you the most. Post #47 has a size/angle chart that matches my understanding of what some (but not all) expert mechanics have advised over the years.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/3-3-4”-corners.547988/post-7392775

It turns out that custom pocket design of tight pocket tables is sort of a religious issue. I have a tight pocket GC at home & obsessed over this stuff for a while also. But over time, I really don’t care much anymore. every table has its own personality & quirks.

4.5” pocket mouths with angles anywhere near standard WPA/BCA spec of 141-142 deg - will play great for 99.99% of folks IMO.

Good luck
 
phreaticus said:
I think this thread will help you the most. Post #47 has a size/angle chart that matches my understanding of what some (but not all) expert mechanics have advised over the years.

https://forums.azbilliards.com/threads/3-3-4”-corners.547988/post-7392775

It turns out that custom pocket design of tight pocket tables is sort of a religious issue. I have a tight pocket GC at home & obsessed over this stuff for a while also. But over time, I really don’t care much anymore. every table has its own personality & quirks.

4.5” pocket mouths with angles anywhere near standard WPA/BCA spec of 141-142 deg - will play great for 99.99% of folks IMO.

Good luck
Click to expand...
Thank you! The chart is a big help.
 
I bought a GC4 from a pool hall that sold a few of them. The room had thicker shims installed to close the corners to 4.5” The table played well and didn’t spit balls out. However the thick facings drove me a little crazy because the shims were not perfect and banking a ball close to the point had mixed results. I was going to have JZMECHANIX install new cushions and do a professional job closing the pockets. Unfortunately I sold the table when I moved☹️ Good job on selecting a GC4, best GC as far as I’m concerned.
 
141 degrees by 12 degrees will play tough but fair. Beyond 141 will make the pockets rattle, similar to a stock Olhausen. There really isn't much need to go more than 12 degrees on the downward angle, unless you are looking to make the pockets play much easier.

I generally cut all Gold Crowns with these angles.

To go from 5" pockets to 4 3/4" pockets, you should be able to get there with new cushions and 1/4" thick facings. No real need for sub-rail extensions. 1/4" thick facings will play just fine. You could use 60A durometer, and be ok. However, with the thicker facing, you might want to try 50A, as it will be more responsive... However, it will cause more pocket rattle. In this case, I might suggest increasing your downward angle slightly... Maybe 13-14.

Keep in mind, not many people would really notice much difference in any of this. Personally, I would use the 1/4" thick 60A facings, at a 12 degree downward angle.
 
CLAUD said:
I plan on changing the cushions, as a precaution, and cloth because I'm not crazy about the color. The pockets are the original 5" corners and 5 1/2" sides. I only want to reduce them to 4 3/4 " an 5 1/4". I would be happy with 4 1/2 but most of the group who will play on this table will be frustrated by anything smaller than 4 3/4.
Click to expand...
I have a 9' GCI and none of the recreational players who have played on my table ever noticed it has tight pockets
(4 3/8ths) About all anyone ever says is "its a big table" which you will hear the same if most are used to bar tables, a Pro-8 is only a few inches smaller.
 
bradsh98 said:
141 degrees by 12 degrees will play tough but fair. Beyond 141 will make the pockets rattle, similar to a stock Olhausen. There really isn't much need to go more than 12 degrees on the downward angle, unless you are looking to make the pockets play much easier.

I generally cut all Gold Crowns with these angles.

To go from 5" pockets to 4 3/4" pockets, you should be able to get there with new cushions and 1/4" thick facings. No real need for sub-rail extensions. 1/4" thick facings will play just fine. You could use 60A durometer, and be ok. However, with the thicker facing, you might want to try 50A, as it will be more responsive... However, it will cause more pocket rattle. In this case, I might suggest increasing your downward angle slightly... Maybe 13-14.

Keep in mind, not many people would really notice much difference in any of this. Personally, I would use the 1/4" thick 60A facings, at a 12 degree downward angle.
Click to expand...
Thanks for jumping in. When you say “Beyond 141 will make the pockets rattle”, you mean larger than 141, yes? Ie 142, 143, etc? Can you describe the range of pocket sizes that you feel 141 & 12 down angle work well for? What angles would you recommend for 4.25, 4.125 and 4.0” mouths?

I think many of us non table techs who want to tweak our home tables are looking for a simple mouth size/angle guideline, so we can understand & discuss the tradeoffs intelligently with a table mechanic to get what we want. I attempted to capture that in the table I posted, but we don’t have any mechanics who have commented on it, and I’m not sure I have it correct or not.

Thanks in advance for your time & sharing your knowledge.
 
phreaticus said:
Thanks for jumping in. When you say “Beyond 141 will make the pockets rattle”, you mean larger than 141, yes? Ie 142, 143, etc?
Click to expand...
Correct.

phreaticus said:
What angles would you recommend for 4.25, 4.125 and 4.0” mouths?
Click to expand...
I like keeping the angles consistent, regardless of pocket size.
Some like to reduce the entry angle for tight pockets. I've heard that Ernesto uses something like 138 degrees on 4" pockets.. The idea here, is that a ball should drop if it hits the opening.

I suppose that it all depends on how you think that a table should play... Since there are no real standards, people do whatever they see fit. However, I feel that we should have unified standard specifications. Since I prefer the way that a properly installed Brunswick table plays, I feel that the angles should never deviate from 141 x 12 (+/- 1), almost regardless of the table. But again, this is my opinion of how a pocket should play.

And that is where it gets tricky....

Commercial bar boxes tend to have very generous angles, usually around 133 deg. This is great for that application, because you want people pocketing balls very easily, and dumping more money into the table.

Diamond tables have a very deep pocket shelf. To make ball pocketing easier, they use a greater downward angle (I believe 14 degrees).

I feel that any adjustment to the way that a pocket plays could be done with facings alone, while leaving the angles the same. If you want the pocket to rattle more, use a softer facing (maybe as soft as 40A). If you want it to play easier, use a harder facing (no harder than 70A). And the reason that I feel this way, is because the facings are the easiest aspect of the design to change.
 
bradsh98 said:
Correct.


I like keeping the angles consistent, regardless of pocket size.
Some like to reduce the entry angle for tight pockets. I've heard that Ernesto uses something like 138 degrees on 4" pockets.. The idea here, is that a ball should drop if it hits the opening.

I suppose that it all depends on how you think that a table should play... Since there are no real standards, people do whatever they see fit. However, I feel that we should have unified standard specifications. Since I prefer the way that a properly installed Brunswick table plays, I feel that the angles should never deviate from 141 x 12 (+/- 1), almost regardless of the table. But again, this is my opinion of how a pocket should play.

And that is where it gets tricky....

Commercial bar boxes tend to have very generous angles, usually around 133 deg. This is great for that application, because you want people pocketing balls very easily, and dumping more money into the table.

Diamond tables have a very deep pocket shelf. To make ball pocketing easier, they use a greater downward angle (I believe 14 degrees).

I feel that any adjustment to the way that a pocket plays could be done with facings alone, while leaving the angles the same. If you want the pocket to rattle more, use a softer facing (maybe as soft as 40A). If you want it to play easier, use a harder facing (no harder than 70A). And the reason that I feel this way, is because the facings are the easiest aspect of the design to change.
Click to expand...
Thanks very much for the very clear explanation & your perspectives. Super helpful.
 
bradsh98 said:
Correct.


I like keeping the angles consistent, regardless of pocket size.
Some like to reduce the entry angle for tight pockets. I've heard that Ernesto uses something like 138 degrees on 4" pockets.. The idea here, is that a ball should drop if it hits the opening.

I suppose that it all depends on how you think that a table should play... Since there are no real standards, people do whatever they see fit. However, I feel that we should have unified standard specifications. Since I prefer the way that a properly installed Brunswick table plays, I feel that the angles should never deviate from 141 x 12 (+/- 1), almost regardless of the table. But again, this is my opinion of how a pocket should play.

And that is where it gets tricky....

Commercial bar boxes tend to have very generous angles, usually around 133 deg. This is great for that application, because you want people pocketing balls very easily, and dumping more money into the table.

Diamond tables have a very deep pocket shelf. To make ball pocketing easier, they use a greater downward angle (I believe 14 degrees).

I feel that any adjustment to the way that a pocket plays could be done with facings alone, while leaving the angles the same. If you want the pocket to rattle more, use a softer facing (maybe as soft as 40A). If you want it to play easier, use a harder facing (no harder than 70A). And the reason that I feel this way, is because the facings are the easiest aspect of the design to change.
Click to expand...
I have a problem with your statement “properly installed”. I just measured a few GC’s at Starcade billiards. They measured 146 degrees. There’s no amount of installation that will fix that. Not sure what the newer GC angles are.
 
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