Good Jump Cue=Lots of Deflection?

[X Breaker]

I have heard the notion that a good jump cue will always have a lot of deflection while a good break cue should have very little deflection.

I am interested in looking at the first part of this statement about the jump vs deflection relationship. I think a good jump cue is one which offers good control and power. Given sound technique and a good stroke, I believe good control can be achieved by a nice taper and balance; while power comes from a light weight, a solid construction, and a hard tip.

When the cue ball is striked into the bed of the table, the cue bounces off the cue ball causing it to jump up in the air. I think the whole secret is that the faster the cue can bounce off the cue ball, the better the cue ball will jump, that is why a snap action with a loose grip always works better than a tight grip. It is not a motion in which the tip should stay in contact with the cue ball pushing it, or squirting it so to speak.

Is it really true that a cue with more deflection will jump better? I cannot see how.

I have tried some jump cue with a fat 14 mm shaft which is really heavy, these kind of shafts produce a lot of deflection, but they don't really jump that well. As a matter of fact, one of the shafts I tried was so heavy it actually made it very hard to jump, despite the fact that it had a phenolic tip which was really big. I like to have a jump cue a little lighter than the cue ball.

On the other hand, is it true that a shaft which jumps well will for sure have a lot of deflection? I cannot really see the relationship here either.

Like I said, I found that a good jump cue has to have a good balance, solid construction, a light weight, and a hard tip(may be a nice taper as well).

Will any of the above or a combination of any of the above result in more deflection?

I can see how a shaft with a hollow front end would be difficult to jump, it is because it is not as solid and thus cannot bounce off the cue ball as fast as a shaft with a solid front end. Also, some of these low deflection shaft has a very soft taper and once again, that could cause a delay in the rebound of the cue.

But just because a low deflection shaft cannot jump well does not mean a good jump cue will have high deflection, does it?

Richard

 

[Snapshot9]

Jump cues ....

I have analyzed jump cues very intently for a number of years.
I was always a kicker until I started losing matches to guys
that weren't as good as me, but the 1 or 2 jump shots they
made allowed them to win the match. Plus the fact that I am
only 5'7" makes it more difficult to jump than say someone that is 5'11". They can get the correct angle easier than I can, especially on close jump shots.

I bought an original Frog from Robin Dodson in Vegas 1 year.
I was impressed with her ability, she was good at demonstrations, plus she brought a couple of guys in to demonstrate it too that were just there for the Tournament.
I practiced with it some. A friend of mine, that had worked
hard on jump shots for about 1 1/2 years gave me some lessons and tips for jumping. The first time I used the frog
in a money match, I made 6 out of 7 jumps, and they allowed
me to win the sets. If the cue ball was less than 5 inches,
I could not get over the impeding ball. The Frog was 46" long.
It had the brass ferrule and a leather tip.

Later on, I saw a very good player, who I have always played
over the years some money ball, shoot a very good jump, close on, dart style, to make the 8 ball in a league match.
I looked at it, tried it, and checked on the net, and ended
up buying one, a Scorpion jumper. The Scorpion is 41" long,
and 8.5 oz. with a very light butt. Now, I could jump a little
better and closer, but my accuracy dropped off some. It has
a hard leather tip.

I recently got a J&J B/J real cheap on Ebay. It breaks good,
and I have only hit 5-7 jump shots with it practicing. I noticed
it has a tendency to squirt in the air a lot easier than the leather tipped jump cues. It has a linen phenolic 1/2" ferrule
and phenolic tip. I would compare it to the others like going
from regular steering to sports car steering, more sensitive.

On the stroke method, I think the stroke varies some depending on how far you are jumping. I think farther jumps
require a little more 'heavy' hit than closer more angled ones
do. Sometimes I can't make a long jump with my jump cue,
but I can with my playing cue. One night playing a weekly
tournament, I got disgusted with my jump cue, and jumped
the next 4 with my playing cue, and made all 4.

I haven't practiced the dart style, more and more guys are
jumping dart style though, BUT they are not making them,
just hitting the ball. The guy I took lessons from could shoot
both ways, and could dart style make balls over a half table
away, not just hit them. He modified a Bunjee though,
put his own butt end on it, hollowed out the butt, drilled
holes in the butt also.

Sometimes it is hard for me to tell if my style is a little off
because I am shorter, and I don't quite hit it right, or whether
it is a problem with the jump cue (for me).

Pool rooms don't allow practicing jump shots anymore, so it
is hard to try to perfect it. But the first time I ever saw
David Matlock here in Wichita, playing Jr. Brown, he made
a 1/2" jump with a full cue (about 89 degree angle) and made
the 2 ball in the side and drew the cue back 4" for perfect
shape on the 3..... with a full cue..... go figure ...
I definitely think the tip matters on jump shots. The heavier
and longer Frog, I had the best accuracy, the lighter shorter
Scorpion I could jump closer (up to 3 inches), and the J&J I have really found out yet, but it does get it up in the air.
I have also watched like Rafeal Martinez, who is only 5'5" or
6", and shoots jump shots sidearmed, but makes them.

 

[bruin70]

I have heard the notion that a good jump cue will always have a lot of deflection while a good break cue should have very little deflection.

Is it really true that a cue with more deflection will jump better? I cannot see how.


On the other hand, is it true that a shaft which jumps well will for sure have a lot of deflection? I cannot really see the relationship here either.


Richard

a good break cue should transfer energy to the cb. this means a stiff hard hitting cue.......and a stiff hard hitting cue will deflect more. if there is little deflection, that means there is displacement of mass, i believe, which means that the shaft is somehow "giving" upon impact. i can't see how there can be optimal transfer of energy if the shaft is giving in upon contact.

what's the point of deflection in a jump cue?????? you're hitting down into the slate. instead of testing a jump cue for deflection, why not test the jump cue by simply jumping. if someone told you red cars are faster, would you buy a red car, or would you take a car out for a fly?

 

[X Breaker]

a good break cue should transfer energy to the cb. this means a stiff hard hitting cue.......and a stiff hard hitting cue will deflect more. if there is little deflection, that means there is displacement of mass, i believe, which means that the shaft is somehow "giving" upon impact. i can't see how there can be optimal transfer of energy if the shaft is giving in upon contact.

what's the point of deflection in a jump cue?????? you're hitting down into the slate. instead of testing a jump cue for deflection, why not test the jump cue by simply jumping. if someone told you red cars are faster, would you buy a red car, or would you take a car out for a fly?

I have read about this(jump cue needs to have high deflection) many times when a low deflection shaft manufacturer tries to explain to their customers why they are not building any jump/break cue. And they would go one step more to claim that it is impossible to build a good jump/break cue because the requirements for a good breaking cue and that for a good jumping cue are totally opposite in regard to "deflection."

I have talked to a lot of professional players who are now breaking with the X Breaker, and I have done a lot of research, I have to say I really cannot see the validity of this claim. As a matter of fact, I think the term "deflection" was being misused in the quoted statement in the first place, and I do not believe the statement is true for the reasons I stated in my first post in this thread.

If anything, I have so many players who told me they really like the control and power they have with the X Breaker, and they think it is a cue which is very good in both the jump and the break department. There are feedback posted on my site in the forum by my customers that everyone can read.

With regard to breaking, I also do not see how a shaft with a hollow front end can offer the most solid hit. It might hit okay but there has to be energy lost and compromise.

I am posting this thread here trying to see what the general players think about this, and I am glad that most of you seem to agree with me.

Having said that, I have to admit I cannot claim I have known everything there is to know about cue or the physic behind jumping and breaking so I am keeping an open mind to learn and an open ear to listen.

Thank you for the feedback.

Richard

 

[mikepage]

I have read about this(jump cue needs to have high deflection) many times when a low deflection shaft manufacturer tries to explain to their customers why they are not building any jump/break cue. And they would go one step more to claim that it is impossible to build a good jump/break cue because the requirements for a good breaking cue and that for a good jumping cue are totally opposite in regard to "deflection."

[...]

Richard

I'm not so sure about this.

I don't understand what it that makes a cue jump well, but I don't think it's the same things that make them squirt a lot. It's true the cues that I have that are the lowest squirt, e.g., predator 314, are awful at jumping. But the cue that I specially rigged up to have very high squirt also jumps very poorly.

Also, I disagree that low squirt is desirable in a break cue. I think you want your break cue to have a pivot point in the vicinity of your breaking bridge length. This was discussed at some length in RSB a few years ago.

Also I don't think stiffness matters in a break cue--stiffer cues don't somehow transfer more energy to the cueball or anything like that.

mike page
fargo

 

[bruin70]

I'm not so sure about this.

Also I don't think stiffness matters in a break cue--stiffer cues don't somehow transfer more energy to the cueball or anything like that.

mike page
fargo

hi mike......
i don't know about my use of the phrase or terminology, so 'scuse me if i use "transfer of energy",,,,it's the only way i can comprehend what happens...

...but are you implying, then, that given everything else being equal except the taper, that a "whippier" shaft will break as well as a stiff one, or that the stiffer shaft has no advantage? i would have to disagree in that case, because i'm pretteee damned good at choosing excellent break house cues by selecting what i deem are stiffer shafts with a hard hit.

 

[bruin70]

I have read about this(jump cue needs to have high deflection) many times when a low deflection shaft manufacturer tries to explain to their customers why they are not building any jump/break cue. And they would go one step mo,,,,,,,,,,, the validity of this claim. As a matter of fact, I think the term "deflection" was being misused in the quoted statement in the first place, and I do not believe the statement is true for the reasons I stated in my first post in this thread.

If anything, I have so many players who told me they really like the control and power they have with the X Breaker, and they think it is a cue which is very good in both the jump and the break department. There are feedback posted on my site in the forum by my customers that everyone can read.

With regard to breaking, I also do not see how a shaft with a hollow front end can offer the most solid hit. It might hit okay but there has to be energy lost and compromise.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Having said that, I have to admit I cannot claim I have known everything there is to know about cue or the physic behind jumping and breaking so I am keeping an open mind to learn and an open ear to listen.

Thank you for the feedback.

Richard

well,,,,i mean,,,,,,i'm not a professional cue builder, but honestly,,,,,,,,,i have always used a stiff, hard hitting cue to break because its properties all make so much sense. i honestly have to take what some of these guyz are saying with a cup of salt.

i'm no history pool buff, but we've seen the evolution of break cues with pro tapers to fatter shafts and modified billiard tapers to phenolic tips, all with the goal of getting a harder hit. and i can remember when everyone was spouting varner's "break with your playing cue because it's what you're used to,,,"....and when a well known pro said to me about 8 years ago that whippy cues are best for breaking. well,,,they're not using THOSE cues today, are they

ultimately, a player plays with what gives him the most snap. so,,,,whatever.

 

[X Breaker]

I'm not so sure about this.

I don't understand what it that makes a cue jump well, but I don't think it's the same things that make them squirt a lot. It's true the cues that I have that are the lowest squirt, e.g., predator 314, are awful at jumping. But the cue that I specially rigged up to have very high squirt also jumps very poorly.

Also, I disagree that low squirt is desirable in a break cue. I think you want your break cue to have a pivot point in the vicinity of your breaking bridge length. This was discussed at some length in RSB a few years ago.

mike page
fargo

I agree with you. And I do not want to sound like I am pushing my own cue but I believe there are more to the break than "deflection" and that it is possible to have a cue which breaks and jumps well at the same time.

Let me try to explain to you why I asked this question in the first place.

I think a lot of cue manufacturers used to put a hard tip on a cue with a very poorly made butt and try to market it as a "great" jump break cue. While the hard tip makes it easy to jump, the cue does not break very well because of the poor construction and balance. So, a lot of players, due to a lack of comparison, come to the false conclusion that a jump break cue is only good for one job but not both.

The hard tip also tends to fly the ball off the table if the player breaks with full power without hitting it perfect. So, they try to tell the players to hit with lesser power, and everyone thought that is the way you have to do it. In my opinion, it is however illogical to buy a cue for breaking only and be afraid to try generate maximum power with it, isn't it?

This kind of hard phenolic tips do not glue well, so they try to build them as a one piece combo. Sadly, the problem of control and power is still there because the balance is never done right, what is worst, is that phenolic will crack/shatter whether you use it as a one piece tip ferrule combo or not. Once again, for a lack of comparision, some players come to the conclusion that if they have a hard break, they should stay with a leather tip.

The search goes on and everyone is trying out all these new products trying to find the perfect solution. My cue came out about half a year ago and we have been doing very well. I am not saying we are the solution but we have tried to solve most of the problems discussed above with certain extends of success.

Some people have told me they really would like to wait for a new breaking cue made with a low deflection shaft which was supposed to come out in Dec, and they are very eager to see this new design which is supposed to be very innovative and revolutionary.

Now, after a few delays, this new (or a modified old model with a new tip) breaking cue finally comes out which features a phenolic tip and a low deflection shaft. It has an ad which shows a big crack down the middle of a pack.

It seems to me that this design is not as innovative as I expected, because it is still using a phenolic tip, which we consider obsolete, and it still fails to address the issue of the phenolic tip coming off the cue during the break among other things. I would not want my customer to run the risk of losing his/her tip when he/she is playing an important match. So, I am a bit confused and I think may be there is something else which would make this breaking cue really different.

Although the tip end is hollow and the taper on the shaft is quite long, they advertise this cue as one which reduces energy loss during the break (or something to that effect). Is it really possible?

I have been trying to find out more about this product. It all seems very interesting. For one thing, it has a butt backward balance rather than forward balance, and it is supposed to generate more power?

In doing my research, I came across statement made by a rep from this manufacturer that one cannot have a cue which jumps and breaks well because one needs less deflection in a breaking cue but more deflection in a jumping cue.

I have been thinking about this for a long time. And I have decided to hear everyone's comment because I really cannot understand the science behind that statement, among other claims I read on these ads I mentioned.

Thank you.

Richard