HIT: Sum of all parts

hadjcues

hadjcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If we could say that the hit of a cue is determined by the sum of its parts, could this be quantified in say a percentage or any ratio/numerical value assuming the following parts are variables/constants to give a specific hit:

1.tip
2.ferrule
3.shaft taper/diameter
4.joint
5. forearm (type of wood, points. inlays etc.)
6.A-joint configuration
7.Handle
8.cue weight

Could a percentage be given to each part on the role it plays on HIT?
Please do add anything that I may have missed

Hadj
 
hadjcues said:
If we could say that the hit of a cue is determined by the sum of its parts, could this be quantified in say a percentage or any ratio/numerical value assuming the following parts are variables/constants to give a specific hit:

1.tip
2.ferrule
3.shaft taper/diameter
4.joint
5. forearm (type of wood, points. inlays etc.)
6.A-joint configuration
7.Handle
8.cue weight

Could a percentage be given to each part on the role it plays on HIT?
Please do add anything that I may have missed

Here are the percentages I think apply. Not an exact science by any means.
1.tip 25%
2.ferrule 20%
3.shaft taper/diameter 15%
4.joint 12%
5. forearm (type of wood, points. inlays etc.) 10%
6.A-joint configuration 5%
7.Handle 5%
8.cue weight 8%
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com
www.cuesmith.com
Click to expand...
 
Makes sense to me Cueman; however, wouldn't the joint have a higher %? I would think around 20%, but then again, I don't build cues. I do know that when I pick up a Viking with a SS joint and a 5/16-18 pin and then pick up a Viking with a phenolic and a 3/8-10 pin, they hit differently. Both shafts are made of the same material, just different joint material.

JMO,
Zim
 
Zims Rack said:
Makes sense to me Cueman; however, wouldn't the joint have a higher %? I would think around 20%, but then again, I don't build cues. I do know that when I pick up a Viking with a SS joint and a 5/16-18 pin and then pick up a Viking with a phenolic and a 3/8-10 pin, they hit differently. Both shafts are made of the same material, just different joint material.

JMO,
Zim
Click to expand...
Where would you take the other 8% away from?
 
Chris,

Great reply! I more or less look at it the same way. The farther it is away from where the cueball comes in contact with the cue the lower the percentage gets. IMO, the upper components from the joint to the ferrule and everything in between determines largely what kind of hit a cue will have. From the forearm down would probably insure it. But when we add the "FEEL" to it, there would easily be a change in the configuration of percentages and the forearm down will be of equal importance.

Zims' got a point there. Thinking, ummmmm.
 
how do you define "hit"?
is it the sound?
the effect on the cue ball?
cause if its a sensatoin, doesnt that come from the feeling you recieve from your grip hand? ill have to try to see if i get any feed back from my bridge hand. and get back to you.
 
Zims Rack said:
Makes sense to me Cueman; however, wouldn't the joint have a higher %? I would think around 20%, but then again, I don't build cues. I do know that when I pick up a Viking with a SS joint and a 5/16-18 pin and then pick up a Viking with a phenolic and a 3/8-10 pin, they hit differently. Both shafts are made of the same material, just different joint material.

JMO,
Zim
Click to expand...
A lot of people may share your observation but the parameters are inadequate thus making the observation just of the superficial. Had you used the very same shaft then your conclusion, of the joint configurations performance difference, can truly reflect (at a higher degree) as a product of the joint configuration difference.

I have experienced replacing a joint collar for a pro player's, Warren Kiamco, cue. Same cue but he had another cuemaker replace the stainless collar to cueball material (phenolic) and didn't like its performance. Came to me and we did a couple more replacements before he was satisfied with the performance. And this is just material replacement as all other specs remained the same. Same joint pin, same joint collar internal thread patterns and the same pilot recieving cavity. Considerable performance differences were noted with all other factors a constant.

The same with Efren. It was suppose to be my personnal cue when completed but when he tried it, he liked it. I made a second shaft for it, same configuration (ferrule, taper and diameters on every inch of shaft's length and depth of the pin's recieving cavity) including tip quality since I make or reprocess the tips that are used in my cues. The only difference was that the 2nd shaft was a couple of grainlines less, than the original shaft that I had on the cue, due to it being selected from a different board. 6 shots later and Efren nixed it due to its outside english bias or inside english performance inadequacy as compared to the original one which has no bias.

I approach cue structural design the way plumbing and electrical circuitry is designed which means that pressure/power drop is considered and all dependent on the end-user (load requirement that needs to be supplied adequately).

Edwin Reyes
 
hadjcues said:
About joints, is phenolic better capped or uncapped?
Click to expand...
I've done both ways. The only problem that I've encountered on older cues that had a joint problem is caused by improperly sealed wood in uncapped joints. Higher humidity swells wood thus causing the joint faces to not have full contact. Refacing the butt joint and resealing the exposed wood will cure the problem.
Edwin Reyes
 
There's one thing I forgot to include in this thread.
When does the type of joint pin come to play and how much of the hit depends on it?
If we base it on the joint's function as to keep a snug and tight fit on the shaft and butt and assuming this is achieved by all the joint pin variations, where' does the difference lie? Does it change due to pin diameter and TPI?
 
hadjcues said:
There's one thing I forgot to include in this thread.
When does the type of joint pin come to play and how much of the hit depends on it?
If we base it on the joint's function as to keep a snug and tight fit on the shaft and butt and assuming this is achieved by all the joint pin variations, where' does the difference lie? Does it change due to pin diameter and TPI?
Click to expand...
Many will disagree with me on the following statement, but I have found the smaller 5/16" pins with flat faced joint to have a crisper hit than the 3/8" with flat faced joint. So to eliminate the brass in the joint I have made phenolic inserts and now offer my shafts both ways. The extra wood to wood you have with the smaller pin makes the hit feel real nice where as the cues I built with 3/8" pins had a flat feeling hit and I abandoned that approach years ago.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
phenolic inserts

cueman said:
Many will disagree with me on the following statement, but I have found the smaller 5/16" pins with flat faced joint to have a crisper hit than the 3/8" with flat faced joint. So to eliminate the brass in the joint I have made phenolic inserts and now offer my shafts both ways. The extra wood to wood you have with the smaller pin makes the hit feel real nice where as the cues I built with 3/8" pins had a flat feeling hit and I abandoned that approach years ago.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
Click to expand...
Chris,
I have been considering using the phenolic for my inserts to reduce wieght at the joint but wasn't sure about the longevity aspect. I was also curious as to why not many use it. If you don't mind divulging, what have been the pros and cons.
 
Last edited:
Zero cons once installed. They do tend to crack sometimes while making them, but after gluing into the shaft I have had no troubles. Even on Ebony cues I don't core. I use a 5/16-14 titanium pin and a phenolic insert. Look on my site and the $3900 ebony cue loaded with ivory only weighs 19 ounces.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
cueman said:
Zero cons once installed. They do tend to crack sometimes while making them, but after gluing into the shaft I have had no troubles. Even on Ebony cues I don't core. I use a 5/16-14 titanium pin and a phenolic insert. Look on my site and the $3900 ebony cue loaded with ivory only weighs 19 ounces.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
Click to expand...
Thanks Chris, I think I'm going to go ahead and build a couple inserts. As far as the cracking I was thinking that if I machined the ID after it was installed it would lessen any chance of that happening.
 
Canadian cue said:
Thanks Chris, I think I'm going to go ahead and build a couple inserts. As far as the cracking I was thinking that if I machined the ID after it was installed it would lessen any chance of that happening.
Click to expand...
Smart move, and also (if the joint end of the shaft is held with zero run out) would guarantee perfect concentricity as well. Phenolic inserts (with a tight fit) hit more solid (IMHO) than brass.

Thanks,

Jon
 
phenolic inserts

BiG_JoN said:
Smart move, and also (if the joint end of the shaft is held with zero run out) would guarantee perfect concentricity as well. Phenolic inserts (with a tight fit) hit more solid (IMHO) than brass.

Thanks,

Jon
Click to expand...
Jon
Thank you for the second opinion, I guess the phenolic inserts are more popular than I first thought.
 
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