I may be in the minority here but, why do people continue to "outlaw" the jump cue. I have heard all sorts of justifications, and I may be a bit stubborn on this, but if a cue is made for use in play and we want manufactureres to invest in the sport.......what are you doing "outlawing" their products (in this case the jump cue). Since everybody enjoys comparing pool to other sports....in golf you have specialty clubs, baseball you have different weight bats and different gloves for positions, etc There is a reason people use juimp cues other than the inability to jump with their playing cue....the difference in tips and ease of use are two major reasons. Just my thoughts on the matter!
Jump Cues!!
- Thread starter Race2-9
- Start date
I may be in the minority here but, why do people continue to "outlaw" the jump cue. I have heard all sorts of justifications, and I may be a bit stubborn on this, but if a cue is made for use in play and we want manufactureres to invest in the sport.......what are you doing "outlawing" their products (in this case the jump cue). Since everybody enjoys comparing pool to other sports....in golf you have specialty clubs, baseball you have different weight bats and different gloves for positions, etc There is a reason people use juimp cues other than the inability to jump with their playing cue....the difference in tips and ease of use are two major reasons. Just my thoughts on the matter!
Race2-9 said:
I think it's because certain cues make jumping a lot easier. In golf and baseball, there are specs to be followed for equipment. Not so in pool, hence the debate over phenolic tips. I've played safeties against guys with those jump cues and they just jump right out of it. I have a jump cue that uses a regular tip, and using my jumper, I just can't duplicate some of the shots I've seen. If I use my friend's Sledgehammer, I can do it all day long. When a person has a
(dis)advantage simply due to equipment, then something needs to be done to level the playing field.-djb
Ive seen people do things jumping with their full cues that i couldnt do with my Sledge.So it is a interesting situation.Plus we have to figure out how to determine the disadvantage? Personally even though i have a Sledge i prefer kicking.just something cool about going 3 rails and hitting a ball and putting your opponent in a safe.I think yes their should be some type of equipment specs.But in the end its skill and hardwork that will get you through no matter the equipment.
Tony said:
For the most part, I agree. I disagree in this instance: when you have two equaly skilled players, the one with the specialty equipment for the specialty shot is going to have the advantage. I might be forced to kick a ball someone else might be able to jump to just because we have different equipment. The game then isn't a measure of skill or who's better, it's a measure of who can afford the better equipment. Take the specialty equipment out of the equation, and it comes down to who has the better skill or technique, which is what contests should be about.
-djb
Doom - does that mean that both players should use the same house cue, no matter what? Is it ok for me to use my Scruggs if my opponent is using a house cue with a mushroomed tip and no chalk?
If you're playing on an opponent's favorite table at their hall, where they know every roll, every tendency, the playing field isn't level - because of the equipment. Does this mean each table should be brand new to both players?
Using the best equipment you can, and knowing your equipment, is a big part of being a good player. Pool really IS about more than just your stroke. Your strategy, your choice in tools, your ability to think, to bluff, to stay on your feet the longest... it's a complicated game and one where the specific equipment is very important.
This isn't a matter of being a contest between who can afford the best and who can't, because no matter what, none of the equipment plays FOR you. Some items may be easier to use for some people. That isn't gonna change, unless we all start playing virtual pool.
The fact is, the cream rises to the top. An equal player getting out of a tough safe because they have a jump cue means one thing: you didn't consider their tools when you played that safe.
In my opinion, slop in 9 ball is a much bigger threat than someone with a jump cue.
Of course, 9 ball is my weakest game and I don't really enjoy much it, anyway, so none of this really applies to me
If you're playing on an opponent's favorite table at their hall, where they know every roll, every tendency, the playing field isn't level - because of the equipment. Does this mean each table should be brand new to both players?
Using the best equipment you can, and knowing your equipment, is a big part of being a good player. Pool really IS about more than just your stroke. Your strategy, your choice in tools, your ability to think, to bluff, to stay on your feet the longest... it's a complicated game and one where the specific equipment is very important.
This isn't a matter of being a contest between who can afford the best and who can't, because no matter what, none of the equipment plays FOR you. Some items may be easier to use for some people. That isn't gonna change, unless we all start playing virtual pool.
The fact is, the cream rises to the top. An equal player getting out of a tough safe because they have a jump cue means one thing: you didn't consider their tools when you played that safe.
In my opinion, slop in 9 ball is a much bigger threat than someone with a jump cue.
Of course, 9 ball is my weakest game and I don't really enjoy much it, anyway, so none of this really applies to me
tobyjoe said:
C'mon now, that's not what I said (typed) or what I meant. I think it's basic knowledge that cue selection is a matter of personal preference, no advantage is gained and most differences between playing cues are purely cosmetic. No matter the playing cue selection, you still have to learn to play with it. In the case of jump cues, there is a distinct difference between cues with a leather tip and those with a phenolic or other exotic tip. Those non-leather tips make it easier to jump, plain and simple.
tobyjoe said:
The playing field isn't unlevel due to the equipment, it's due to the knowledge of the player. Knowledge, skill, and ability go hand in hand. Plus, both players are using the SAME equipment.
tobyjoe said:
When it gets to a point where specific equipment can make certain shots easier (read: gain an advantage), then something should be done to make the field level again. This is exactly what the USPPA has done, and I support that decision.
tobyjoe said:
What, am I gonna ask the guy if he's using a Sledgehammer or a Cuetec? Think he's gonna tell me? By that reasoning, I'm not only playing the table and my opponent, I have to adjust my game based on his EQUIPMENT? Seems a little unrealistic to me.
-djb
Doom, sorry if it wasn't clear, but most of my questions were rhetorical. My main point was that what is at stake is whether the selection of equipment can affect the outcome of a match of two equally skilled players. Of course, the answer is that it can. If someone is playing with a mushroomed, smooth, worn tip, they are most likely at a disadvantage over someone who is playing with a new Moori. Same when it comes to the cues themselves, in fact. Given that the phenolic tips are available to both players, if they so decide, it seems that the field is level, but their preferences may not be equal. If a guy who is used to a softer leather tip is suddenly handed a cue with a phenolic tip, and his opponent has used his phenolic for a year and practiced 12 hours per day, is the playing field suddenly level?
I agree with you that it does seem easier to jump with a phenolic (though don purdy can tell you that he tried teaching me how to jump with a sledgehammer for about half an hour and he walked away laughing), and i'm just now getting to where I sort of CAN do it, but still, it's a crap shoot and i've never used it in a match (and doubt i will, given that i prefer games other than 9 ball).
I guess what I'm saying is that the ability is the biggest issue and that no equipment that we have actually discussed makes that much difference universally. given the small gain you might get and the fact that this equipment is so freely available to anyone with an extra couple hundred bucks, I still maintain that the field itself is level. whether someone decides to play in an unfamiliar area of the field is their own choice.
i have a feeling this is more an issue for tournament players, anyway. gamblers and friendly players will agree to no jumpers or no 3 foul rule, etc, on a per-match basis.
if that's the case, then I think we're talking about different fields anyway
I agree with you that it does seem easier to jump with a phenolic (though don purdy can tell you that he tried teaching me how to jump with a sledgehammer for about half an hour and he walked away laughing), and i'm just now getting to where I sort of CAN do it, but still, it's a crap shoot and i've never used it in a match (and doubt i will, given that i prefer games other than 9 ball).
I guess what I'm saying is that the ability is the biggest issue and that no equipment that we have actually discussed makes that much difference universally. given the small gain you might get and the fact that this equipment is so freely available to anyone with an extra couple hundred bucks, I still maintain that the field itself is level. whether someone decides to play in an unfamiliar area of the field is their own choice.
i have a feeling this is more an issue for tournament players, anyway. gamblers and friendly players will agree to no jumpers or no 3 foul rule, etc, on a per-match basis.
if that's the case, then I think we're talking about different fields anyway
sorry, but this might be a good response to:
"By that reasoning, I'm not only playing the table and my opponent, I have to adjust my game based on his EQUIPMENT? Seems a little unrealistic to me."
what if i were to say:
"By that reasoning, I'm not only playing the table and my opponent, I have to adjust my game and equipment based on THE AMOUNT OF MONEY HE CAN/IS WILLING TO SPEND ON A JUMP CUE? Seems a little unrealistic to me."
again, i suck at jumps anyway...
"By that reasoning, I'm not only playing the table and my opponent, I have to adjust my game based on his EQUIPMENT? Seems a little unrealistic to me."
what if i were to say:
"By that reasoning, I'm not only playing the table and my opponent, I have to adjust my game and equipment based on THE AMOUNT OF MONEY HE CAN/IS WILLING TO SPEND ON A JUMP CUE? Seems a little unrealistic to me."
again, i suck at jumps anyway...
By "people" who outlaw jump cues, are you referring to pool room owners/managers? I haven't heard of individual players "outlawing" them, but I understand why they might be outlawed by pool room management. Anybody who doesn't know how to jump properly is at risk of damaging the cloth on a table. Even if he doesn't tear it, the tip of the cue hitting the cloth can leave little marks that don't come out. (I know; I've done it to my own table!)Race2-9 said:
I haven't learned to jump properly yet, and I don't have a jump cue, but if I did, and somebody who wanted to play me told me that I couldn't use a jump cue, I'd tell him jump himself right into a lake or someplace.
Jump Cues
gw,
Up here in the northeast, the Joss Tour banned jump cues. There are other regional tours I play on that jumpers are banned. If you can jump with a full cue, go ahead. The joke about a golf bag full of special use cues is no joke. One of our tours allows only two cues to the table. Some people have figured out they can hollow out the butt section of a break / jump cue, add weight to the shaft joint, use a phenolic tip and create a full length "jump" stick. When a shot comes up, they take that third cue from their bag. If you want to bring a break cue to the table, you must use it, as is. I'm 5' 4". If my opponent is 6' 4" he will have a much easier time jumping with a full cue than I will. Making everyone kick would level that playing field. Learning another traditional billiards skill will help keep that game alive as well! Saving expensive bed cloth is another reward. Our room requires use of a break pad for 8 / 9 ball and no jumps of any kind.
gw,
Up here in the northeast, the Joss Tour banned jump cues. There are other regional tours I play on that jumpers are banned. If you can jump with a full cue, go ahead. The joke about a golf bag full of special use cues is no joke. One of our tours allows only two cues to the table. Some people have figured out they can hollow out the butt section of a break / jump cue, add weight to the shaft joint, use a phenolic tip and create a full length "jump" stick. When a shot comes up, they take that third cue from their bag. If you want to bring a break cue to the table, you must use it, as is. I'm 5' 4". If my opponent is 6' 4" he will have a much easier time jumping with a full cue than I will. Making everyone kick would level that playing field. Learning another traditional billiards skill will help keep that game alive as well! Saving expensive bed cloth is another reward. Our room requires use of a break pad for 8 / 9 ball and no jumps of any kind.
Purdman
Banned
Table marks
I have found that placing a small square patch of table felt under the cue ball when practicing jumping eliminates the mark. I also sell these with the colored paper towel tubes known as the StrokeXplainer. The patches are called SkidMark NoMo's. You can purchase the entire collection of Purdman Billiars Products, StrokeXplainer, SkidMark NoMo, and the Spring Loaded Laser Guided Cue for $750. Of course I offer 20% to 40% off to all AZ members. These must be ordered from my official Purdman Billiard Product supplier, Joseph Cues Ltd.
Don P.
I have found that placing a small square patch of table felt under the cue ball when practicing jumping eliminates the mark. I also sell these with the colored paper towel tubes known as the StrokeXplainer. The patches are called SkidMark NoMo's. You can purchase the entire collection of Purdman Billiars Products, StrokeXplainer, SkidMark NoMo, and the Spring Loaded Laser Guided Cue for $750. Of course I offer 20% to 40% off to all AZ members. These must be ordered from my official Purdman Billiard Product supplier, Joseph Cues Ltd.
Don P.
E
eroqueen
Guest
This jump cue thing has to be my favorite subject!!!!! First of all, lets start by saying the biggest problem with the new jump cues is anyone can buy one. In one of my leagues we have some people who still can't hold a cue properly, but they can jump a ball. This has to seem ridiculous to somebody other than me. Your opponent can't make 2 balls in a row but you can't hook them because they just jump out of it everytime??? This is definately where my problem lies. I feel good players should be able to learn the art of jumping without needing to rely on specific equipment. I'm sure if you can run out consistently with your own cue, you can pick up a house cue and run the same tables pretty regularly. It shouldn't make that much of a difference. What's next, a cue that you just put on the table and it runs out for you?? I want one of those!!!! I enjoy watching great players, and seeing great jump shots is a treat, but great jump shots with these new sticks, it's all that exciting. I mean, the cue did it, not the player.
I
instroke
Guest
eroqueen said:
This debate is going on at RSB as well. First of all the stick does not make the shot. There is a poster above, TobyJoe, who has attested that he still cannot jump well even with a Sledgehammer. I can swear an affidavit that I have personally taught hundreds of people to jump who would NOT be able to pick up a jump cue and start jumping right away. There HAS to be some skill there to start with. The jump cue does not line up the shot, it does not determine the amount of force to use, it does not decide on the spin to use, it does not stroke and it does not follow through. The jump cue, like the regular cue is inert until it is used by a player.
I have two full cues that I use regularly. With one I can jump almost as good as with my jump cue. With the other I cannot jump well at all. If you were to watch me using cue one you would think I am an accomplished jumper and with cue two you would think I need some serious practice and lessons to learn to jump.
The point is that the jump cue is a tool just like the pool cue is. A jump cue is engineered to facilitate the jump shot and so it does. All the jump cue does IS take the variable of the cue out of the equation and boil it down to how WELL the person shooting can execute.
We all know that the chalked leather tip allows for spin to be applied to the ball but it is not the TIP that makes the shots it is the player who controls the rock within the parameters of what that tip will allow.
The jump cue is a better arrow but it does not make a better Indian. Overall it makes for a better game.
John
John is right, but let me reframe the context of my not being able to jump well: I have only put in maybe an hour of practice at it, ever. I never really play 9 ball (where, usually, jumping is most often necessary) and so I never take time to practice jumping. The reason I mentioned it is to point out that, as an average newbie player (only about one 20 ball run per night in 14.1) I couldn't pick up the Sledge and get hopping well in the first half hour, like anti-jump folks claim. It really is a skill. Period. Hell, Don is a good teacher, and did teach me some stuff that really helped my game (and it wasn't that much...) and he couldn't get me to do anything but miscue and jab and poke and screw up. I did get the ball hopping one night recently in practice, but missed the duck object ball maybe 5/10 times. It takes practice and skill, period.
I would like to make a bet with anyone who claims that skill isn't the real factor. I'll set up a tight jump to a 5 diamond cut in the corner. You put someone who has never used the jumper on the table and I'll put Purdy (who basically has a hook for a hand right now, hehe. Well, ok, i'm exaggerating, but he does have a bum paw at the moment). If your newbie can make the shot more times out of 10 than Don, I'll buy you a bottle of Cristal and jump on the anti-jumper bandwagon. If not, you'll shave the sledgehammer logo in the back of your head and leave it for a month.
I would like to make a bet with anyone who claims that skill isn't the real factor. I'll set up a tight jump to a 5 diamond cut in the corner. You put someone who has never used the jumper on the table and I'll put Purdy (who basically has a hook for a hand right now, hehe. Well, ok, i'm exaggerating, but he does have a bum paw at the moment). If your newbie can make the shot more times out of 10 than Don, I'll buy you a bottle of Cristal and jump on the anti-jumper bandwagon. If not, you'll shave the sledgehammer logo in the back of your head and leave it for a month.
I have some comments about the jump cue...
First, I agree with what DoomCue said about how it isn't fair if some people are able to spend the money on a jump cue while others are not. If I was running a local or amateur tournament, I would not allow jump cues. It increases the advantage of players who have one. Amatuers should not be forced to go out and buy a jump cue just to play in a local tournament once a week. The same holds true for the APA leagues, which is why, I believe, jump cues are not allowed. Also, you are dealing with people of vastly different skills. The lower rated players, even if they had a jump cue, would be able to use it at all. However, at the pro and semi pro level, jump cues should be legal. I never understood why on the Joss Tour you couldn't use jump cues. If you are a serious player and go to these tournaments to try to make money, you should buy a jump cue, no excuses. Jumping is a skill that everyone should practice, just like kicking, breaking, etc. Pro golfers, if they can't use a 9-iron, and refuse to buy one, have no right to say that the club should be banned. As long as the specifications can be standardized, jump cues should be allowed.
Second, I read in one of the posts above that you can use a small square of felt to eliminate the damage to your table. I practice trick shots between 10 and 20 hours a week. I do between 300 and 500 jump shots a week and 300 - 500 masse shots a week. My table gets recovered about 4 or 5 times a year. I tried using a small square of felt to avoid this damage. I want to say that it will help in damage control, but the jump / masse shot that you try will be affected by that extra piece of cloth. You are adding extra cushioning below the cue ball. The cue ball will not jump the same. I have found that using the cloth, you need to hit the cue ball harder to jump the ball. Also, on certain masse shots, the cue ball has less action, and on some, it has more action. It depends on the type of shot and how much you elevate. I can't give exact details here because I would have to show you the different shots and why the action on the cue ball changes, but it does. I wouldn't recommend using that. One thing that I have seen other artistic pool players use (Rick Malm - who has a great CD out teaching all of the artistic shots), is a piece of metal. This will only work for masse shots, not jump shots. It has a weird shape that will be in the correct position where the cue tip hits the felt, but it will also be out of the way of the cue ball. You do not put the cue ball on it, you put this thing up against the cue ball. It is very thin so you can get it really close. It is kind of shaped like an hourglass.
Andy
First, I agree with what DoomCue said about how it isn't fair if some people are able to spend the money on a jump cue while others are not. If I was running a local or amateur tournament, I would not allow jump cues. It increases the advantage of players who have one. Amatuers should not be forced to go out and buy a jump cue just to play in a local tournament once a week. The same holds true for the APA leagues, which is why, I believe, jump cues are not allowed. Also, you are dealing with people of vastly different skills. The lower rated players, even if they had a jump cue, would be able to use it at all. However, at the pro and semi pro level, jump cues should be legal. I never understood why on the Joss Tour you couldn't use jump cues. If you are a serious player and go to these tournaments to try to make money, you should buy a jump cue, no excuses. Jumping is a skill that everyone should practice, just like kicking, breaking, etc. Pro golfers, if they can't use a 9-iron, and refuse to buy one, have no right to say that the club should be banned. As long as the specifications can be standardized, jump cues should be allowed.
Second, I read in one of the posts above that you can use a small square of felt to eliminate the damage to your table. I practice trick shots between 10 and 20 hours a week. I do between 300 and 500 jump shots a week and 300 - 500 masse shots a week. My table gets recovered about 4 or 5 times a year. I tried using a small square of felt to avoid this damage. I want to say that it will help in damage control, but the jump / masse shot that you try will be affected by that extra piece of cloth. You are adding extra cushioning below the cue ball. The cue ball will not jump the same. I have found that using the cloth, you need to hit the cue ball harder to jump the ball. Also, on certain masse shots, the cue ball has less action, and on some, it has more action. It depends on the type of shot and how much you elevate. I can't give exact details here because I would have to show you the different shots and why the action on the cue ball changes, but it does. I wouldn't recommend using that. One thing that I have seen other artistic pool players use (Rick Malm - who has a great CD out teaching all of the artistic shots), is a piece of metal. This will only work for masse shots, not jump shots. It has a weird shape that will be in the correct position where the cue tip hits the felt, but it will also be out of the way of the cue ball. You do not put the cue ball on it, you put this thing up against the cue ball. It is very thin so you can get it really close. It is kind of shaped like an hourglass.
Andy
mgdietrich
New member
This has been interesting. One thing that I don't understand is the whole money issue. I would guess in most leagues just about everybody has there own cue (unless just starting). Of those people there are probably $20 cues up to $2000 cues. And alot in between. With the price of quality cues dropping, what the heck is there to dropping $125 on another cue? If you don't have that extra and are a league player you should look at your finances. Not trying to knock anyone, but a Bungee jump/break is relatively cheap. If you don't want to by a single "jump" cue, don't; by a combination cue instead. Mcdemott, Cuetec, etc...
I have a middle of the road Mcdermott for playing, had it about 4 years. I also bought a Sledgehammer this past fall. Why? The break is one of the most important shots in the 9 ball and 8 ball and I didn't want to carry around three cues. Two is fine, and the Slegehammer is an excellent jumping and breaking cue.
Another person wrote that they don't like seeing a person who can only make two balls in a row jump, why not? If they can only make two balls in a row and the jump is one of them you should be kicking there a$$.
Just some observations. Jump cues aren't EXTREMELY expensive, if you want one fine, if you don't fine too. However, you still need to know how to use the thing if you do have it.
I have a middle of the road Mcdermott for playing, had it about 4 years. I also bought a Sledgehammer this past fall. Why? The break is one of the most important shots in the 9 ball and 8 ball and I didn't want to carry around three cues. Two is fine, and the Slegehammer is an excellent jumping and breaking cue.
Another person wrote that they don't like seeing a person who can only make two balls in a row jump, why not? If they can only make two balls in a row and the jump is one of them you should be kicking there a$$.
Just some observations. Jump cues aren't EXTREMELY expensive, if you want one fine, if you don't fine too. However, you still need to know how to use the thing if you do have it.