league question

SteveFromNY

SteveFromNY

Registered Boozer
Silver Member
really long post..please bare with me!! :(

I've always played in leagues on and off at my old poolhall and was consistently rated as a C. So I took a little time off and joined again at a new poolroom, and went in as a D+ since I hadn't played in awhile. So 6 weeks into the season, I'm now 4&1 and doing a little better than I thought so they raised me to a C. Obviously, I'm not as good as a LOT of you guys here but last night I was accused of dumping and stalling my games. I didn't and wasn't so I just simply brushed it off. At the end of the game, the other team and our captain talked it over with the director and decided to raise me to a C+. I honestly have no problem with that, I actually found it a nice complement since I never really considered myself a good player anyway.

Also- we have another player that joined our team as a D because he always played at the C level on bar tables so we decided it would be best to start him low and see how he plays. He adapted extremely well, MUCH better than any of us thought and now has been raised 3 times to a C+. So now apparently, other teams think that our whole team is nothing but a bunch of sandbaggers and that we lied about our speeds to gain an edge. I found it hilarious (call me naive but I honestly never thought people do that at a local league) but my teammates didn't, and are now really upset. What would you guys do in our situation? I don't want the rest of my team to suffer just because I'm playing better than I thought I would have.
 
This happens in any league that there's a handicap system and a new player - new to that league, and unranked within its system - starts playing.

I've seen it time and again in my APA league. One time a couple of years ago, a new team came into our division, a bunch of older guys that all worked at (or were pals with) a local transmission shop. None of'em had played league before. So they all started as fours.

The week we played them was only a week or two after the start of the session. The guy I drew was currently a three. I think I was a six at the time, a weak six. The guy drills me 2-0. A few weeks later, HE'S a six. :P Just turned out that he lost his first match, went down, and then started winning. I just happened to be the guy who caught the short end of his handicap adjustment period.

Don't sweat what the other folks are saying - you and your other new player have gotten moved up, and if you play stronger than your current handicaps, they'll move you up again. Handicap systems are built for adjustments.
 
sandbagging

To be clear, we do NOT think your team is a bunch of sandbaggers. I don't think that you are hiding your game, I don't think that the majority of your team is either. I DO think that you are a solid B player, which you should take as a compliment, and I don't think you'll have any trouble playing competetively as a B, as a C+ I think you'll continue to demolish people. The handicap system will always have flaws, but should generally even out over time and people should fall somewhere at about 1 above or below their true handicaps, but not 2 levels -- i.e. if a B plays as a C, it's just too obvious and not fair to the field, but a B as a C+ is not as big a deal and we see this all the time. Note that if nothing is said, the handicaps don't adjust, and they remain ridiculous, so sometimes teams need to complain, Leyman can't keep track of over 150 players and adjust handicaps quick enough without feedback.

Regarding the real issue though which our team had issues with: only one of your players I DO believe was sandbagging, and it was pretty obvious. Your team captain did not deny this to be true but did what any teamate torn between honesty and loyalty would do, pleaded ignorance and kept saying "none of us know his true speed to be honest, we don't know how he really plays." Understood, but understand that one player sometimes will reflect on all of his teamates. I don't think there are any bad intentions here, nobody is trying to "rob" anyone, but I do think that this one particluar player is playing at a level which falls about 3 handicaps lower than his true speed and at one point was playing about 5 handicaps lower at the D. If the guy comes in at the D, which he did, and continues to crush people at the C+ which I'm sure he will, can you honestly say that he wasn't ridiculously underhandicapped at the D when he came in? That he was even remotely honest about his speed when he accepted such a handicap? That he's not trying to hide his game by making unsolicited claims to people who weren't even watching that he "got lucky" when he cut a ball 90 degrees to fish the 9 ball when there was no other possible shot in site and spanked yet another opponent 7-3 and stands at 5 and 0 despite going up 3 times? I guess time will tell. We'll see how he does at the C+, but my guess is that it won't slow him down at all and that he really should be playing higher than that as well. Either way, as our team simply pointed out from the beginning, we dont' care if nobody on your team went up, we would just all like to be lowered to be able to compete on a fair playing field if your handicaps stand.

BTW - according to our league director, we're not the ones who labeled you guys sandbaggers, nor do we believe you are collectively such, but the past 4 teams you faced did, so unless your handicaps are pretty close to reality and your star player was just really lucky 5 weeks in a row as he claimed last night ("everybody just plays bad when I play them and I keep getting lucky" - word for word), perhaps people have some sort of point to be unhappy with paying 15 bucks a week for 20 minutes to get drilled by someone they should be getting weight from but somehow give up weight to? Again, don't misunderstand, our whole team thought it was a pity that you guys might be judged by the actions of one, but that's the trade off if you stand idly by and plead ignorance, you will be seen as a team, even when it's not convenient.

My suggestion: have your player raise himself to what he thinks his true speed is. You won't get any more complaints and you'll enjoy the league more. I also think you'll be competetive because you guys would be very good even if you were raised.
 
SteveFromNY said:
really long post..please bare with me!! :(

I've always played in leagues on and off at my old poolhall and was consistently rated as a C. So I took a little time off and joined again at a new poolroom, and went in as a D+ since I hadn't played in awhile. So 6 weeks into the season, I'm now 4&1 and doing a little better than I thought so they raised me to a C. Obviously, I'm not as good as a LOT of you guys here but last night I was accused of dumping and stalling my games. I didn't and wasn't so I just simply brushed it off. At the end of the game, the other team and our captain talked it over with the director and decided to raise me to a C+. I honestly have no problem with that, I actually found it a nice complement since I never really considered myself a good player anyway.

Also- we have another player that joined our team as a D because he always played at the C level on bar tables so we decided it would be best to start him low and see how he plays. He adapted extremely well, MUCH better than any of us thought and now has been raised 3 times to a C+. So now apparently, other teams think that our whole team is nothing but a bunch of sandbaggers and that we lied about our speeds to gain an edge. I found it hilarious (call me naive but I honestly never thought people do that at a local league) but my teammates didn't, and are now really upset. What would you guys do in our situation? I don't want the rest of my team to suffer just because I'm playing better than I thought I would have.
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Are we talking about the 9-ball league at Amsterdam Billiards? Which team are you?
 
Spade,

While I think your post was well written and you make excellent points that I agree with, I think you should PM Steve to identify yourself, or post your name at the bottom. You obviously know who he is, so why not just keep it all out in the open?

Steve,

I have a couple new players on my team that have been accused of sandbagging. One is a 22 yr old young man who has been playing pool for less than a year and this is his first league. Opponents say he should be an APA SL5 instead of a SL3 or 4.

The other is an experienced player, but this is his second league. He did move up after the first week. We had no problem with it. He held his handicapp for the next 4 weeks (winning 4 out of 5) and moved up to a SL6.

Does it put our team at a bit of a handicapp disadvantage? Yes. But, I can see where the other teams are coming from. Both players are drilling everybody the play. In the long run, it will all come out in the wash.

Keep having fun. Sounds like you're shooting pretty good. Don't worry about people accusing you of sandbagging. When you're winning, that will happen.
 
call it a spade said:
To be clear, we do NOT think your team is a bunch of sandbaggers. I don't think that you are hiding your game, I don't think that the majority of your team is either. I DO think that you are a solid B player, which you should take as a compliment, and I don't think you'll have any trouble playing competetively as a B, as a C+ I think you'll continue to demolish people. The handicap system will always have flaws, but should generally even out over time and people should fall somewhere at about 1 above or below their true handicaps, but not 2 levels -- i.e. if a B plays as a C, it's just too obvious and not fair to the field, but a B as a C+ is not as big a deal and we see this all the time. Note that if nothing is said, the handicaps don't adjust, and they remain ridiculous, so sometimes teams need to complain, Leyman can't keep track of over 150 players and adjust handicaps quick enough without feedback.

Regarding the real issue though which our team had issues with: only one of your players I DO believe was sandbagging, and it was pretty obvious. Your team captain did not deny this to be true but did what any teamate torn between honesty and loyalty would do, pleaded ignorance and kept saying "none of us know his true speed to be honest, we don't know how he really plays." Understood, but understand that one player sometimes will reflect on all of his teamates. I don't think there are any bad intentions here, nobody is trying to "rob" anyone, but I do think that this one particluar player is playing at a level which falls about 3 handicaps lower than his true speed and at one point was playing about 5 handicaps lower at the D. If the guy comes in at the D, which he did, and continues to crush people at the C+ which I'm sure he will, can you honestly say that he wasn't ridiculously underhandicapped at the D when he came in? That he was even remotely honest about his speed when he accepted such a handicap? That he's not trying to hide his game by making unsolicited claims to people who weren't even watching that he "got lucky" when he cut a ball 90 degrees to fish the 9 ball when there was no other possible shot in site and spanked yet another opponent 7-3 and stands at 5 and 0 despite going up 3 times? I guess time will tell. We'll see how he does at the C+, but my guess is that it won't slow him down at all and that he really should be playing higher than that as well. Either way, as our team simply pointed out from the beginning, we dont' care if nobody on your team went up, we would just all like to be lowered to be able to compete on a fair playing field if your handicaps stand.

BTW - according to our league director, we're not the ones who labeled you guys sandbaggers, nor do we believe you are collectively such, but the past 4 teams you faced did, so unless your handicaps are pretty close to reality and your star player was just really lucky 5 weeks in a row as he claimed last night ("everybody just plays bad when I play them and I keep getting lucky" - word for word), perhaps people have some sort of point to be unhappy with paying 15 bucks a week for 20 minutes to get drilled by someone they should be getting weight from but somehow give up weight to? Again, don't misunderstand, our whole team thought it was a pity that you guys might be judged by the actions of one, but that's the trade off if you stand idly by and plead ignorance, you will be seen as a team, even when it's not convenient.

My suggestion: have your player raise himself to what he thinks his true speed is. You won't get any more complaints and you'll enjoy the league more. I also think you'll be competetive because you guys would be very good even if you were raised.
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I play in this league. Who are these guys? Who are you?
 
Steve,

In the past four seasons, two teams have won the league twice. Now, there have been several issues regarding the teams that have won. Most particularly, teams that have faired well lately frequently consist of players that are either not regulars of Amsterdam OR fall under the poolroom radar.

No matter, any team that walks into the league and does well right off the bat is scrutinized now. It is a very strong league (regarded as the strongest league in the country) and part of the reason for its success has to do with the concessions its strongest players must make every single match. To put things in perspective, your newly acquired C+ rating will still get you 4 games on the wire going to 9 against a player like myself. That means, I must win more than twice as many games as you and you are arguably not established as yet. If your rating is right or high, there's a reasonable chance I will win but to date, it's been arguably low. Now, is it fair that a player like myself, who has been playing in this league consistently for years must not only dole-out a huge chunk of weight to a new player but also be the underdog?

Unfortunately, this is a risk higher players face every single season for the sake of league success. However, make no mistake of it, I strongly believe that no new team should EVER be leading their divsion in their first season. Not with the caliber of play in this league, not with the weight we typically give-up. If you're new and winning, there's something wrong. The veteran players obviously aren't as protected as they should be and if you're shuffling your feet when asked a direct question, you better believe you're going to upset people.
 
SteveFromNY said:
really long post..please bare with me!! :(

I've always played in leagues on and off at my old poolhall and was consistently rated as a C. So I took a little time off and joined again at a new poolroom, and went in as a D+ since I hadn't played in awhile. So 6 weeks into the season, I'm now 4&1 and doing a little better than I thought so they raised me to a C. Obviously, I'm not as good as a LOT of you guys here but last night I was accused of dumping and stalling my games. I didn't and wasn't so I just simply brushed it off. At the end of the game, the other team and our captain talked it over with the director and decided to raise me to a C+. I honestly have no problem with that, I actually found it a nice complement since I never really considered myself a good player anyway.

Also- we have another player that joined our team as a D because he always played at the C level on bar tables so we decided it would be best to start him low and see how he plays. He adapted extremely well, MUCH better than any of us thought and now has been raised 3 times to a C+. So now apparently, other teams think that our whole team is nothing but a bunch of sandbaggers and that we lied about our speeds to gain an edge. I found it hilarious (call me naive but I honestly never thought people do that at a local league) but my teammates didn't, and are now really upset. What would you guys do in our situation? I don't want the rest of my team to suffer just because I'm playing better than I thought I would have.
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That's funny... I was just told that you played as a B in the Corner league, and not a C like you just mentioned. A B player coming in as strooooooong D+.
 
Advanced mathematics

It's a real simple formula.

HANDICAP = ACCUSATIONS OF SANDBAGGING.

It's never going to change. Try to get use to it.

Just let things level out and have fun.

Stones
 
42NateBaller Spade,

I have a couple new players on my team that have been accused of sandbagging. One is a 22 yr old young man who has been playing pool for less than a year and this is his first league. Opponents say he should be an APA SL5 instead of a SL3 or 4.

Jude Rosenstock,

"...It is a very strong league (regarded as the strongest league in the country) and part of the reason for its success has to do with the concessions its strongest players must make every single match."

:eek:Maybe you two guys are not on the same page :confused:
 
Your team was totally underhandicapped, like most of the other teams in this league. We played you and had no chance. Your D basically ran about 5 racks from the 3 ball.

Is that even fun?

This league was once a truly wonderful thing. Unfortunately, it has degenerated into what we have today. There's like 30 teams of 6, and a ton of new players. Nobody knows who they are, they're all underhandicapping themselves, and the only ones who get hurt are the veterans (like Jude says). When they play each other, they're both low so who cares?
 
Gregg said:
42NateBaller Spade,

I have a couple new players on my team that have been accused of sandbagging. One is a 22 yr old young man who has been playing pool for less than a year and this is his first league. Opponents say he should be an APA SL5 instead of a SL3 or 4.

Jude Rosenstock,

"...It is a very strong league (regarded as the strongest league in the country) and part of the reason for its success has to do with the concessions its strongest players must make every single match."

:eek:Maybe you two guys are not on the same page :confused:
Click to expand...


The thread is about the Amsterdam Billiards' 9-ball league. That reply is about the APA.

Some of our more note-worthy members in the past few years include Tony Robles, Ginky, Mika Immonen, Steve Lipsky, Jennifer Barretta, Kim Shaw... Honestly, I can go on all day.
 
Woah! quick responses

This is Doug Rhee... not trying to hide who I am, just never posted before and haven't set up a profile, this is the first time as it was brought to my attention today that this was posted and I felt I needed to clarify a few things. Wow, how I got sucked into this type of forum hurts my personal sense of pride, but, so be it i guess, I'm a pool nerd at heart.

Jude, to answer your question, our team (you know us) "Horse with No Name" played "Captain Sparky and the Drunken Stupids." The players we are talking about are:

Steven Lu (now a C+, came in as a D+) used to be a B in the Corner league, took time off, ok, but D+? I took time off and came in as a B still, lost 3 in a row and finally got lowered to a C+, soon to be raised again likely -- if I ever find my stroke again.

John Powers (now a C+, came in as a D, 5 and 0 and see who he played and what the scores were) -- nobody, including his teamates seems to know his real speed, that's what sparked this whole thing off. To come in at the D, with the way he plays, well that's just amusing at best, dishonest at worst, but probably a bit of both, to extend the benfit of doubt.

Regarding the handicaps, as someone who has gotten flack for being underhandicapped many times, especially since I chronically quit this retarded game but almost invariably end up obsessed with it again after a couple years, I know that people will complain when you generally pull out a game higher than your average, or once was average... But to be honest, I would never dream of actually allowing myself to be placed at the D or even D+ level, which is clearly what has happened here -- at least 3 handicaps too low, not one, not two, 3 if not 4 or 5 in John's case. That's where it's not just people whining about handicaps anymore, it's really just wrong and actually insulting. Are we morons that we wouldn't notice? I mean really? If there were enough old Corner players around, I'm sure they would have ferreted this out long ago; even if this team had to face Nelson and Carlos's team, i'm sure they would'nt let sleeping dogs lie, they just haven't objected so far because it hasn't affected them.... yet.

We'll see what happens from here, but I think in the end, you'll find that being raised to C+'s really is a gift compared to what would have happened if you went into the playoffs with handicaps so low.

Good luck, hope to see you guys in the playoffs where we can play on an even playing field. We love a fair and competetive match!
 
Steve Lipsky said:
This league was once a truly wonderful thing. Unfortunately, it has degenerated into what we have today. There's like 30 teams of 6, and a ton of new players. Nobody knows who they are, they're all underhandicapping themselves, and the only ones who get hurt are the veterans (like Jude says). When they play each other, they're both low so who cares?
Click to expand...

Which begs the question:

Why does your league have the players handicapping THEMSELVES?

That just has "abuse me!" written all over it.
 
Minor observation.

Without knowing all the particulars in this situation, generally, "sandbagging" is always difficult to prove and often the word gets thrown out there prematurely and causes more problems than it solves.

Using the term "underated" is usually far more useful in actually effecting change.

IMO sandbaggers should be tossed out and underated players simply need to have their handicaps adjusted. It shouldn't be a bigger deal than it needs to be.
 
To be fair, a majority of our team had no real idea (except for watching our new player actually play a few racks) before determining what his speed was. At the time, we were undecided on "recruiting" him, so to us, I honestly believed that he had no reason to downplay his game. He's a friend of a few players on the league so his speed was also vouched for. That, and when we signed him up, I believe our captain (I haven't confirmed this yet) had explained that we were unsure of his true speed.

After last night's match, he himself had told us that he would request another raise himself if he continues to do well, but whenever I watch his games (no offense to him), I feel that he is truly not ready for the B level.

In all honesty, we joined the leagues at ABC for fun, and I'd never imagined that the competition was that intense (not that it's a bad thing really). We also NEVER would have imagined the amount of success we would enjoy. Up until the last few weeks, we were still scrambling for a true A or B level player to help carry our team. Anyhow, I don't really feel qualified to defend or speak about any of my teammates without their knowledge so I won't.

It is true that I used to play at Corner Billiards, but please understand that their rating system (from what I was explained) was consistently rated much lower compared to Amsterdam. Players that played in both leagues always had a lower handicap at ABC because of the higher level of competition I guess. To add to that, before my little hiatus, I was JUST raised from a C+ to a B level and had not fared well in the playoffs so I honestly felt my game was not at that level yet. Players then had also told me that ABC's rating level was consistent with the Tri-State Tour, and a lot of players that were at my speed were all C to C+ level players, many of which are at that current level now at ABC.

Brian and Jude, with respect and IMHO, both of your games are leaps beyond my own, and rightfully so, since I've witnessed your games on many occasions. Jude, you in particular have a few acquaintances that you personally play with that can also vouch for my speed. I honestly would NOT feel comfortable playing at the B level, although, if need be, I would gladly accept the raise if it will help our team be better received. As I've stated before though, it truly is a compliment coming from players of your caliber.

To the call is a spade, I want you to know that I was NOT accusing your team of calling us "sandbaggers". I'm sorry if that's what you understood from my post but it wasn't my intention. I was stating that John had told us after our game that other teams had begun calling us that. Up until last night, nobody has once said anything to us about any of this so I was shocked to say the least. And to be honest- I don't appreciate being labeled a LIAR just to win a prize. I understand that the green fees and table time each week can really add up, but as I stated before, we came into this league really to have fun. I hate the fact that other teams are beginning to think that when in all honesty, that was NEVER our intention. I can say that to no end, but those that think what they think will continue to do so- so all we can do is play our best every week.

One more thing to note. If you look closely at all of the matches we'd won, there were a few times where the outcome of the tiebreaker was decided by less than a handful of games. Anyway, I really had no idea that there were so many ABC league players on this forum, and I originally posted this thread for advice, but it seems I'd inadvertantly stirred up some drama- which I never intended to do. I'm sorry guys.
 
ScottW said:
Which begs the question:

Why does your league have the players handicapping THEMSELVES?

That just has "abuse me!" written all over it.
Click to expand...

Scott,

Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I mean is that since there are so many new players, the league director to a certain extent has to take players' words for how they play. When you have 60 new players, you can't watch them all play before the season.

So he makes an initial handicap and then waits to see how things shake out (over four or five weeks or so) to make any adjustments. Unless there is something EGREGIOUS going on, like what is happening to the team in question in this thread, in which case changes will come more rapidly.

- Steve
 
ScottW said:
Which begs the question:

Why does your league have the players handicapping THEMSELVES?

That just has "abuse me!" written all over it.
Click to expand...
I suppose to some, this is license to totally cheat in a tactless and juvenile way. To people who actually wish to improve, have fun, and not be the subject of complete and ultimate ridicule by anyone worthy of respect in this league, well maybe it's a little different. Sandbagging in this league, for most young players, is a juvenile way of hedging your bets because you're really just afraid to face that you may not be successful if you played at your true handicap, kind of cowardly if you ask me. God forbid you begin questioning your own true ability. Rather, why not just sandbag, lie about your ability and then revel in the idea that somehow you're even better than you actually are by just hiding your true speed, not only to your opponents, but to yourselves as well. This explains how a perfectly intellegent person can be so bad at sandbagging. They secretly want you to know they are really better than they are on paper. Their fragile ego's can't stand the idea of being labeled a D, so they have to stuff it in your face and make it obvious that they are sandbagging... then they turn around with suprise when you point it out. This is where I come in and say, you aren't nearly as good as you act. This isn't a hustle job, and you're not good enough to hustle, so cut it out, it's a league. If you step on everyone's toes, they won't like it, do you really want that label in one of the last pool halls left in manhattan? your choice
 
SteveFromNY said:
To be fair, a majority of our team had no real idea (except for watching our new player actually play a few racks) before determining what his speed was. At the time, we were undecided on "recruiting" him, so to us, I honestly believed that he had no reason to downplay his game. He's a friend of a few players on the league so his speed was also vouched for. That, and when we signed him up, I believe our captain (I haven't confirmed this yet) had explained that we were unsure of his true speed.

After last night's match, he himself had told us that he would request another raise himself if he continues to do well, but whenever I watch his games (no offense to him), I feel that he is truly not ready for the B level.

In all honesty, we joined the leagues at ABC for fun, and I'd never imagined that the competition was that intense (not that it's a bad thing really). We also NEVER would have imagined the amount of success we would enjoy. Up until the last few weeks, we were still scrambling for a true A or B level player to help carry our team. Anyhow, I don't really feel qualified to defend or speak about any of my teammates without their knowledge so I won't.

It is true that I used to play at Corner Billiards, but please understand that their rating system (from what I was explained) was consistently rated much lower compared to Amsterdam. Players that played in both leagues always had a lower handicap at ABC because of the higher level of competition I guess. To add to that, before my little hiatus, I was JUST raised from a C+ to a B level and had not fared well in the playoffs so I honestly felt my game was not at that level yet. Players then had also told me that ABC's rating level was consistent with the Tri-State Tour, and a lot of players that were at my speed were all C to C+ level players, many of which are at that current level now at ABC.

Brian and Jude, with respect and IMHO, both of your games are leaps beyond my own, and rightfully so, since I've witnessed your games on many occasions. Jude, you in particular have a few acquaintances that you personally play with that can also vouch for my speed. I honestly would NOT feel comfortable playing at the B level, although, if need be, I would gladly accept the raise if it will help our team be better received. As I've stated before though, it truly is a compliment coming from players of your caliber.

To the call is a spade, I want you to know that I was NOT accusing your team of calling us "sandbaggers". I'm sorry if that's what you understood from my post but it wasn't my intention. I was stating that John had told us after our game that other teams had begun calling us that. Up until last night, nobody has once said anything to us about any of this so I was shocked to say the least. And to be honest- I don't appreciate being labeled a LIAR just to win a prize. I understand that the green fees and table time each week can really add up, but as I stated before, we came into this league really to have fun. I hate the fact that other teams are beginning to think that when in all honesty, that was NEVER our intention. I can say that to no end, but those that think what they think will continue to do so- so all we can do is play our best every week.

One more thing to note. If you look closely at all of the matches we'd won, there were a few times where the outcome of the tiebreaker was decided by less than a handful of games. Anyway, I really had no idea that there were so many ABC league players on this forum, and I originally posted this thread for advice, but it seems I'd inadvertantly stirred up some drama- which I never intended to do. I'm sorry guys.
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Well written and understood. Appreciate the address and good luck. As a C+ you'll be more than fine. Just glad you're not a D+ anymore. that was just ridiculous, to your credit.
 
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