Natural Ability

[slow_moe]

I was watching my brother last night shooting at a soda can with a cheap .22 semi-automatic rifle he had just gotten. After a couple of shots to see where it was hitting he was able to dance the can across the yard, hitting it 10 out of the next 12 shots - all with no front site on the gun. Though he doesn't play pool with my very often, he is a really good shot maker with no thought to stance, stroke, bridge, etc.

I got to wondering if maybe what everybody calls natural ability on the pool table isn't nothing more than exceptional hand-eye coordination. Quite often when you find someone that is a "natural" at pool, they are also adept at other sports that require hand-eye cordination such as darts, ping-pong or bowling.

If this is the case, would some kind of activity to improve general hand-eye coordination help improve my shotmaking also? I know practicing the fundamentals and constantly challenging yourself is the best way to improve, but when your looking for something to give you an edge you got to consider everything.

Ernie

You want an edge? Put your nose to the grindstone.

 

[railbird25]

i've always heard that one of those rubber ball and paddle things will really improve your hand eye coordination...i always thought it was silly but i think it does help somewhat

 

[Joseph Cues]

Must be.
I can hit a softball 50 feet away with my .45 Sig easily.
I can twirl two nunchuks.
But, I will never be an A player.

 

[Bluewolf]

Sometimes I wonder if it is that 'eagle eye' thing. I have good coordination but it is hard at times to keep my eye on the object ball at the right moment, which is essential for great shooting.

I think that this is something I will have to work on a lot.

For instance. I had a fairly easy cut on the 8. My stroke, alignment, aim was right as far as i could tell. From what I glean, my eye vered off in that last millisecond, making me miss the shot.

 

[E-Licious]

I also think this is the case. I have a buddy in the National Guard, and when he went through the shooting part of basic, he scored a 36 of 40 to qualify for expert marksman (qualifying is 20 or 24, i think). He doesn't shoot pool very often, but I brought him to shoot some pool with us and he was doing surprisingly well on long, straight shots, but had some troubles with med to close cuts. This leads me to believe that he was shooting very straight (eagle eye), but just couldn't figure out the angles to cut at, which takes experience.

 

[bruin70]

I got to wondering if maybe what everybody calls natural ability on the pool table isn't nothing more than exceptional hand-eye coordination.
Ernie

You want an edge? Put your nose to the grindstone.

i know of players at my room who can pocket any shot they see.......however they cannot position, have a terrible, ugly stroke, look stiff when they shoot. can only run 15 balls because they can't position a good break shot, or cannot get to the rack from their breakshot.

 

[SuperDave]

Watch my 12-year-old if you want to see a natural. Stance, setup, stroke, shotmaking and placement have been nearly flawless in his game since the time he had to pick his hand above his shoulder to get the cue over the table. I am convinced that there's such a thing as a "natural pool player," because I'm raising one.

I'm probably a C/B level player (APA 6), and I have to buckle down to stay even with him.

Having said all that, a basic hand-eye coordination is imperative to good shooting. With that, IMO, anything else can be taught.

 

[bruin70]

,,,,,get the cue over the table. I am convinced that there's such a thing as a "natural pool player," because I'm raising one.

of course you're right. i absolutely believe in natural talent.

there is whole very significant number of peoples who think that everything can be taught. well,,,yes, in a sense, ANYTHING can be taught. i can teach myself to golf, but no amount of hard work will ever make me a pro level golfer.

to be at the top level,,,THE TOP LEVEL,,, you need natural talent and you need to nuture that talent. but first and foremost, give me that talent to mold.

the natural talent has the gift to create. to make something from nothing. they have the ability to take a small amount of information and build a philosophy. and talent encompasses varying levels. i hate it when people said griffey had the talent and mattingly got there with hard work. hello,,,,,they BOTH had "natural talent"(whatever that meant in THAT scenario).

 

[jaythedr]

Well I have been playing from the age 8 Im 40 now. My dad was a so called house pro. in his 20's he is now 75 and still can run the table. In the APA Im a 7 in 8 ball and 9 in 9 ball. I to think playing pool from a early age is the key. p.s. im no pro thats for sure. and ill play with a pro before i'll play with any joe in the room. Guys like Tommy Kenndy showed me so much on the pool table its not funny. and I thank him very much indeed. and all the other pro's that helped me in the past. So if you know where the pro's are go play with them and only them for 2 or 3 years and you'll get better. are snooker for a year or two.

 

[bruin70]

,,,, I have long wondered what seperates the natural champion from the work your butt off manufacturered one.

the difference between the gifted and the "nots".....

the gifted have spontaneous creativity. the "nots" learn by the book. they don't have the ability to see any further than what they are told.

this encompasses both mental and physical. mentally, the natural just plain "sees" more than the nots. he is aware in a three dimensional way,,,ie. he is open to many solutions of a given problem. and sees details the "nots" couldn't dream of. and by physical, i mean the sheer dexterity displayed when the natural employs his tools.......as if he were born with them in his hands.

this is not to say one can't compete with the other. sport, as we know, has many variables that determine an outcome.

there are many examples, but none more obvious than the movie "streets of gold". it's a movie about a former russian olympic boxer who trains a natural(wesley snipes) and another boxer who has to work at it. the snipes character is able to pick up combinations quickly and intuitively, and expands his arsenal of moves with even the smallest bits of info, while the other boxer struggles to grasp the simplest combinations and learns only by countless repetition.

all hard work does is make you the best you can be. to bring you closer to your full potential. and the natural has MORE potential than the "nots".

 

[Bluewolf]

My husband is a very decent apa 7. He sees talent in me where I do not see it. He says he has a problem sometimes popping up on the shot and that I never pop up once I am down. He says that my stroke is beautiful and that all I need to do is pot balls and not worry about whether they go in or not right now. He says I need to trust my stroke and just hit balls. he said that if i hit enough balls, my brain will learn and seizures and all of that will not matter.

I do not know if he is right or not. I sure do not feel talented and had just accepted that. Maybe pool is so different from karate. I was sooo good in karate in 2-3 years.I am athletic and coordinated and have been a natural in all other sports I did. Pool seems so hard and have really only played a year and was sick or in a wreck or something for most of that year.

Just assumed i did not have what it takes for pool. Now after he talked to me last night I am really confused. Everybody on these boards just seem so good at pool. I really look up to the good pool players on here.

Is this just me? If there are good pool players here who ever felt untalented, I would like to know.

Laura

 

[bruin70]

he is givng you encouragment in the right places. that you have solid basics to build upon, and that maybe all you need is confidence and practise.

pool is an odd skill game. i know plenty of jocks who look terrible at the table. if you really love playing pool, there is probably an ability to perform it well laying deep inside.

pocketing balls will answer all your doubts. if your basics are solid, all someone need do is teach you a system to see angles.

Is this just me? If there are good pool players here who ever felt untalented, I would like to know.

Laura

ray martin says he was an average player who became what he became through hard work. so HE believes he was untalented. i think it's a crock. he always had the potential to be great, and practise brought it out.

 

[Bluewolf]

he is givng you encouragment in the right places. that you have solid basics to build upon, and that maybe all you need is confidence and practise.

i just love to stroke the ball. I love staying down on the ball even after the balls are where they are going. Once I am down, i do not want to pop up. I want to stay down and be with the balls and stay down too long watching where they are going and what they are clicking on. I have the opposite problem he has, I want to be with the balls,not up above them looking down.

Thanks for your encouragement.

Laura

 

[Joseph Cues]

Blue, are you following Scott's at least 2-second pause on the last stroke rule?
It has done wonders for me.

 

[Snapshot9]

Champions - born or made ...

There are some naturals for the game.

But for every champion, born or made, what you don't see is hundreds and thousands of hours thinking about the game or sport. They visualize shots or patterns, think about them, how to shoot them, what english, etc.. Some even dream of Pool (I know I did for awhile).

I went to a business seminar once in my 30's, and the guy was talking and he pointed out, "A person moves toward what they think about, and they move away from what they don't think about".

Roll that around for a minute or so ...
It's true ... realize the depth of that statement.

The people that are good are able to take a vision or idea and make it work for them. Practice comes in in the completion of that vision or idea.

Ever see someone that took up magic tricks. At first, they were clumsy and not very good, but then they get better and better and before long you are having trouble trying to figure out how they did it. It almost becomes magical. Same way for a good pool player, watching them can seem like magic or art, but it is because of knowledge they have acquired and their ability to put that knowledge to use.

Even the best of Pool players, when they see something 'odd' or 'fascinating' or have a shot that bothers them, will think about it over and over in their mind, perhaps reenact it on the Pool table until they become satisfied with it in their minds.
Jump shots could be an example of that.

When I was in High School, a junior I think, my brother had a college friend that had over a 200 I.Q.. My brother got him started with Pool. In 4 months of playing, he was as good as someone that had been playing 3 years. He was not normally an athlete, but he was able to use his mind to overcome most of the problems with Pool. (but he still couldn't beat me.... <grin>).

 

[bruin70]

I know Ray Martin very well, I believe what he said, he tells it like it is, if he said that, take it to the bank. That was the way I was, no natural talent, just worked my butt off, Jeanette Lee is another example, Ben Hogan in golf. people like us, have to work so much harder to play with and or defeat the natural it is sickning. It's a wonder to me that it ever occurs. To those of you who are ginders, have hope, it can be done,but you will have to have the heart of a lion. Fast Larry.

i'm sure he worked hard at his game....and i'm sure he was "average" at some point early in his career. but i don't believe in the notion that you can EXCEED your potential. some might work as hard and as tirelessly as ray, but they might only become strong B players. i think ray's potential was always to be a hall-of-famer.

everyone, at some point , was average. mika was probably average his first x years. jeanette was average when she started. great artists were average at some point early in their life. but to say they were average and only became great through hard work is to misinterpret the natural growth process of the skilled.

 

[Bluewolf]

joseph,

Thankyou! yes I am. I stay at the cb until I am good and ready which is at least two seconds. Sometimes I have a slight tremor too so this helps to get my body settled, make sure my aim and alignment is true. If it is not, I stand up, shift my feet, and do the preshot again.

Scott did wonders for my stroke. I would have to say that between scott's teachings and randy gs pool school is why it is practically impossible for me to drop my elbow. Larry helped me too but we worked on different things which helped my break,draw and follow. Learning from scott and Larry just gave me the flexibility to see which draw to use and when.

While I do not think it is good to bounce from instructor to instructor, I do think that sometimes someone can teach you something new but think a person should have one 'primary' instructor. JMHO

I am now following my husbands advice and fallin in luv with the balls I guess. The balls are starting to drop. I call this 'zen pool'.

There is a zen saying, 'when you seek it you cannot find it', which I think means when you let go, surrender,the stroke starts working. When I wanted it too bad, was for lack of better words, tying myself up in knots.

Lucky to be on a team with friends and there is no pressure from thing cept even if I lose, am asked 'but did you have fun?' Best team I have been on and think if it was not for them I would have dropped APA altogether.

Laura

 

[Bluewolf]

Long sorry

To some other comments:

It is funny how I got into pool and league play. When my new husband told me to join the team, I said I was not too good cuz had just played on barboxes in bars for a beer many years ago. He said we need cruddy women players. Then my first captain said i would be a 2 (lowest in apa) for a long time.My new husband REALLY did not think I had any potential at all, although has since changed his mind, and I screamed at him bout this and so forth and would only practice when he was not around. So I guess me and pool kind of got off on a bad foot. Not at all how I was treated in karate where even a white belt was treated with respect and much encouragement and patience but that is non pool.So I went in and out of pool for three years,mostly out and finally settled down with it, mid last august, a little less than a year ago.

I am normally a very physically healthy person. This year has been what I call a challenge. I started pool seriously mid august. Took scotts lesson, randy g pool school in beginning of october. By mid october I was sick. Just one thing after another, including being in the hospital twice, even though I have never been in the hospital, ever,cept to have a baby. Much of the time I was bedridden, had that bad wreck and my back still is hurt.I have now got up to an hour to a little more of practice a day so far. Trying to work up to two as my body mends.

I say that not to get sympathy, but to say this. We had this plaque in our karate dogo of all of the things that one could achieve in karate. Funny how you forget somethings and remember others. Only thing I remember on that plaque was 'indominable spirit'. Dont know what anybody's vocabulary is but to me this is such a fierce determination, the person cannot go down in defeat or quit ever.This is something, if a person, has it, nobody can take that away.

One thing I noticed in karate as over the years I saw students come in and out of the dojo. The ones that came in that got it easy, naturally talented, for the most part fell by the way. The ones like me who had to work at it they were the ones that rose to the top. I was determined and no practice was too hard, no number of hours was too much, I was addicted. Others that excelled, 90% of them had to work hard for it too. Just like zen, they came in for one thing and ended up with much more.So what really is talent, I ask?

Often I see someone look at a beginner or someone young in the sport and say, they will never go above this or that or they have talent or dont. How can they say that? How do they know when the persons talent will come out? (sometimes I do get down on myself for sure and there is always somebody to pick me back up and remind me and say 'you can do it' or that 'heart' does it)I s not it like a flower. Some come of quick, some come up slow. And are not the ones that come up slow often the prettiest ones and they stay up longer?

When I could not go to the pool table or if I could only for 15 minutes,the rest of the times I was thinking about it, dreaming about it. My husband would be practically asleep and I would wake him up with a move, a shot, a safe and force him to listen and get his feedback or I would say 'this is how the balls spin I am thinking' is that right?.

At league, I look at the table at the beginning and read it and say I would choose stripes or solids and this is why, I would choose this safe, this order of shots in the run or get out this ball or leave it and why and discuss all of this with another player who I knew would know this. And that person says yes or no and if no, why.This is how I am learning to read the table based on where I am at in comprehension. Lots dont know, dont pretend to. Lots to learn.

So yes, I thought about pool constantly. Sometimes I have wanted to give up and said i was but it never lasted for more than 24 hours, because something inside will not let me.

I know what natural talent is to me, like born with it, come out of the womb stroking the cue,but here is one more story.

There is a guy in our poolhall who is a ballbanger, so hard he hit he is called 'bambam'. Everbody sez he will never be more than a sl3 in apa. I say 'he will be a sl7'and one other guy who was pretty okay thought like me. Because what I see is not talent but indominable spirit or what some call heart. And he keeps getting better and is learning to hit soft, and safe when it is needed and so on...

Great discussion. Thanks to all and I just love hearing about the greats and your stories too!!!

Laura

ps- sorry for poor grammer and for so long a post