Offset points or butterfly fix

[SSDiver2112]

Not sure how I got these so far off. Is there a calculation to move the center or is it just by eye and feel?

They were dead even prior to tapering. After my first pass I saw they were getting off, so I adjusted the center on the butt end. Maybe I went the wrong way. I'm not sure. I've done three other butterfly cues with great success, but this became a disaster. In trying to fix it I thinned out the butt more than I wanted and they are still off. The joint is fine, but the butt is thinner than I normally do. I think after I clean up the burr on the high wing it will be about an 1/8" off. This is very upsetting since it's my first real unfixable mistake. It's not firewood, but it's not going to be the cue I thought it would be. This is another reason I haven't tried cutting points yet.

Pictures overlayed.

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

Either moved the center the wrong direction or not far enough would be my guess.
Cut it off and try again.

 

[SSDiver2112]

Either moved the center the wrong direction or not far enough would be my guess.
Cut it off and try again.

Thought about it and if it was just the butt I might. I was experimenting with a one piece handle/butt. I could still cut off the butt and modify the design. I’m going to sit on it for a while before I decide which direction to go.

Guess I just need to be even more careful with these adjustments.

 

[DeeDeeCues]

More information is necessary to figure out what went wrong.

How did you cut the butt to add the butterflies? Was the butt straight and running true when you made the cut?

As far as correcting the heights in the future, it is pretty simple, but requires a bit of math. If you turn the butt oversized and subtract the heights, you can use the 'law of similar triangles' to figure out how far to offset the rear of the cue. You cannot move the center (I hope that is obvious), you must re-center the cue.

Measure the height of the taller butterfly (we'll call this H1, we'll call the shorter butterfly height H0), then subtract half of the difference in heights (We'll call this delta or D). Divide the result by the full height to get the multiplier, M. Now measure the base of the same butterfly (i.e. the depth of cut at the end of the butterfly, we'll call this B1). Multiply B1 by M, to get B2 and subtract the result from B1. This will tell you how far to move the center toward the taller butterfly (works for points, too).

In math notation:

Step 1:
(H1-H0)/2=D

Step 2:
(H1-D)/H1=M

Step 3:
M x B1=B2

Step 4:
B1-B2=Distance to offset center.

This isn't perfect because I'm assuming you would only move the rear of the cue, which isn't a parallel shift of the entire cue. For short butterflies it will get you very close. The equation is less effective the further the tips of the butterflies are from the center (really only takes another series of calculations).

If this doesn't make sense, send me the dimensions and I can draft it up in CAD.

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

Thought about it and if it was just the butt I might. I was experimenting with a one piece handle/butt. I could still cut off the butt and modify the design. I’m going to sit on it for a while before I decide which direction to go.

Guess I just need to be even more careful with these adjustments.

View attachment 801025

If points/flies are off you can put the butt piece/short splice between centers and put a witness mark around the the 2 ends of the flies (or the high/low fly if there are more than 2) Same with points if you are trying to adjust them.
Then you can visually see how much adjustment needs to be made. Use a maple disc that you have pre made that has a center hole (make sure it is like a 0 or 00 60 degree center hole and does not extend thru to the other side, probably will be about 3/16" thick at the most) on one side and is flat on the other on the end of the piece when it is between centers (sometimes needed at the joint end or vice versa, butt end) with and indicator on the top of the piece. Rotate till the short one is on top. Tap the piece down a few thou and it will slide along the disc. This will take some experimenting to figure out how much pressure to use so it doesn't fall out but will still slide once it's tapped with another piece of wood dowel.

Once you get it moved to where you like it, a few drops of thick cyno on the edges of the disc will hold it there when you're cutting the long side off. Make NO movement to the cutter depth or the taper from your last cut (when you've realized something is messed up) after you've done this procedure of adjustment. Put a witness mark back and forth down the entire length of the piece being cut so you can now see if you have made all the proper adjustments after the first trial cut. Second cut, dial your cutter in approx 3 thou and take another pass. You will see the witness marks being shaved off and you'll visually see if you are headed in the right direction or not. If you need to make a disc adjustment again it is easily removed by just trimming the cyno off and starting the entire procedure all over again.

It's generally not a 1 and done procedure but what's your hurry? Precision is the optimum want here for the end result and generally being in a hurry will not let you end up there.
A movement of around 5 thou will knock the length of the fly/point back about an 1/8" after you've made cuts to get the piece back to round and it is no longer egg shaped. Some trial and error will let you know how much for the length of movement in the fly/point that is needed.
Usually done in 3 thou increments tapped down at a time depending on how far out they are. Yours didn't look to be that much diff so small moves will suffice.

You mentioned you're already smaller dia than you like to be so just cutting off the back end might not be a option if the handle area is too small also. You may end up make it a short splice style cue ( jump cue handle) and chalk it up to a learning experience for future reference.

Key to eliminating needing to do this entire procedure is having an exact set up in the beginning and making sure all your cuts are precise and on point.
I was told many years ago by a master woodworker that becoming a "master class" in anything is how well you can hide your mistakes.
Everyone makes them....it's what you do to fix them that makes the difference.

 

[SSDiver2112]

More information is necessary to figure out what went wrong.

How did you cut the butt to add the butterflies? Was the butt straight and running true when you made the cut?

As far as correcting the heights in the future, it is pretty simple, but requires a bit of math. If you turn the butt oversized and subtract the heights, you can use the 'law of similar triangles' to figure out how far to offset the rear of the cue. You cannot move the center (I hope that is obvious), you must re-center the cue.

Measure the height of the taller butterfly (we'll call this H1, we'll call the shorter butterfly height H0), then subtract half of the difference in heights (We'll call this delta or D). Divide the result by the full height to get the multiplier, M. Now measure the base of the same butterfly (i.e. the depth of cut at the end of the butterfly, we'll call this B1). Multiply B1 by M, to get B2 and subtract the result from B1. This will tell you how far to move the center toward the taller butterfly (works for points, too).

In math notation:

Step 1:
(H1-H0)/2=D

Step 2:
(H1-D)/H1=M

Step 3:
M x B1=B2

Step 4:
B1-B2=Distance to offset center.

This isn't perfect because I'm assuming you would only move the rear of the cue, which isn't a parallel shift of the entire cue. For short butterflies it will get you very close. The equation is less effective the further the tips of the butterflies are from the center (really only takes another series of calculations).

If this doesn't make sense, send me the dimensions and I can draft it up in CAD.

Thanks, Just what I was looking for.
This became a hard lesson I hope will deter me from repeating. First I should have tapered of the original center that was dead on and added the butt plate after tapering. Instead my re-center after the butt plate was off slightly. Then when I tried to adjust it, I must have moved the cues center the wrong way, making it worse. in the process I chipped the short one causing me to remove more girth than I wanted.

 

[SSDiver2112]

If points/flies are off you can put the butt piece/short splice between centers and put a witness mark around the the 2 ends of the flies (or the high/low fly if there are more than 2) Same with points if you are trying to adjust them.
Then you can visually see how much adjustment needs to be made. Use a maple disc that you have pre made that has a center hole (make sure it is like a 0 or 00 60 degree center hole and does not extend thru to the other side, probably will be about 3/16" thick at the most) on one side and is flat on the other on the end of the piece when it is between centers (sometimes needed at the joint end or vice versa, butt end) with and indicator on the top of the piece. Rotate till the short one is on top. Tap the piece down a few thou and it will slide along the disc. This will take some experimenting to figure out how much pressure to use so it doesn't fall out but will still slide once it's tapped with another piece of wood dowel.
Once you get it moved to where you like it, a few drops of thick cyno on the edges of the disc will hold it there when you're cutting the long side off. Make NO movement to the cutter depth or the taper from your last cut (when you've realized something is messed up) after you've done this procedure of adjustment. Put a witness mark back and forth down the entire length of the piece being cut so you can now see if you have made all the proper adjustments after the first trial cut. Second cut, dial your cutter in approx 3 thou and take another pass. You will see the witness marks being shaved off and you'll visually see if you are headed in the right direction or not. If you need to make a disc adjustment again it is easily removed by just trimming the cyno off and starting the entire procedure all over again.
It's generally not a 1 and done procedure but what's your hurry? Precision is the optimum want here for the end result and generally being in a hurry will not let you end up there.
A movement of around 5 thou will knock the length of the fly/point back about an 1/8" after you've made cuts to get the piece back to round and it is no longer egg shaped. Some trial and error will let you know how much for the length of movement in the fly/point that is needed.
Usually done in 3 thou increments tapped down at a time depending on how far out they are. Yours didn't look to be that much diff so small moves will suffice.
You mentioned you're already smaller dia than you like to be so just cutting off the back end might not be a option if the handle area is too small also. You may end up make it a short splice style cue ( jump cue handle) and chalk it up to a learning experience for future reference.

Key to eliminating needing to do this entire procedure is having an exact set up in the beginning and making sure all your cuts are precise and on point.
I was told many years ago by a master woodworker that becoming a "master class" in anything is how well you can hide your mistakes.
Everyone makes them....it's what you do to fix them that makes the difference.

Another great idea, thank you. I appreciate everyone taking the time to help.

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

This became a hard lesson I hope will deter me from repeating. First I should have tapered of the original center that was dead on and added the butt plate after tapering. Instead my re-center after the butt plate was off slightly. Then when I tried to adjust it, I must have moved the cues center the wrong way, making it worse. in the process I chipped the short one causing me to remove more girth than I wanted

Adding a sacrificial piece to the end of the butt and cutting the flies on a lathe or mill would produce a much more precise and cleaner end result.
Lessons are just steps in the process that generally need to be taken to get a higher quality end result.
I can't tell you how many times I've modified procedures to get to the end result I was looking for.

 

[SSDiver2112]

Adding a sacrificial piece to the end of the butt and cutting the flies on a lathe or mill would produce a much more precise and cleaner end result.
Lessons are just steps in the process that generally need to be taken to get a higher quality end result.
I can't tell you how many times I've modified procedures to get to the end result I was looking for.

I think you are saying to not use the band saw and jig but to cut it on the lathe (I do not have a mill).
I thought about it but the offset is too far off. I am using a mid America cue lathe.

 

[BarenbruggeCues]

I think you are saying to not use the band saw and jig but to cut it on the lathe (I do not have a mill).
I thought about it but the offset is too far off. I am using a mid America cue lathe.

It can be done by using a fixture that sits on top of the lathe bed and not adjusting the tail.
It just really depends on how often you may use something like that compared to the cost of having it built or your time and expense doing it yourself.
It's all a learning curve and adjustments along the journey.

 

[avscue]

I think you are saying to not use the band saw and jig but to cut it on the lathe (I do not have a mill).
I thought about it but the offset is too far off. I am using a mid America cue

the method dave is suggesting is an easier and more reliable way to cut your butterfly. it can be done with a band saw but it has a slew of problems associated with it. the main problem is that you are cutting a round blank, it is very hard to keep the cuts even and perpendicular on a bandsaw. jigging will help but there is always a drift problem.

 

[rack runner]

the method dave is suggesting is an easier and more reliable way to cut your butterfly. it can be done with a band saw but it has a slew of problems associated with it. the main problem is that you are cutting a round blank, it is very hard to keep the cuts even and perpendicular on a bandsaw. jigging will help but there is always a drift problem.

yup.
cutting the flies as a square might be interesting if your wood moves or your grain isnt lined up and u wanna fix it later. or if you cut it as a round, lile brugge said, cut it on the lathe and use/make an indexer/indexing plate or indexing mill standalone. at least then itd be consistent angle/length/depth on both sides. never done em, but seems like the guys that do em often cut and recut as a round. ala bhq and diekkman.

 

[SSDiver2112]

the method dave is suggesting is an easier and more reliable way to cut your butterfly. it can be done with a band saw but it has a slew of problems associated with it. the main problem is that you are cutting a round blank, it is very hard to keep the cuts even and perpendicular on a bandsaw. jigging will help but there is always a drift problem.

yup.
cutting the flies as a square might be interesting if your wood moves or your grain isnt lined up and u wanna fix it later. or if you cut it as a round, lile brugge said, cut it on the lathe and use/make an indexer/indexing plate or indexing mill standalone. at least then itd be consistent angle/length/depth on both sides. never done em, but seems like the guys that do em often cut and recut as a round. ala bhq and diekkman.

I've built a couple different jigs but the first one has worked the best. It still isn't as accurate as I want. It takes a lot of tweaking and touch-up after the cut. I really like the idea of using the lathe's indexing to cut the flies. If I am understanding you correctly, I guess I would have to build a mount for a tailstock off to the side of the lathe bed to offset it enough or maybe a cross-slide on a cross-slide would be more accurate, so the cue stays in the chuck.

If anyone has any examples, I would appreciate it. I haven't found much that would apply to my limited shop.

 

[rack runner]

ya. had some guys cut the flies with the cue between centers. then either offset the tailstock or have a spare tailstock permanently set up for flies so they dont have to re-zero every time.