Oops I did it again (Yapp's) foul in a final, a second time!

[Cornerman]

I think the person in the best position to actually see if it was good or not was Yapp. His reaction immediately after shooting the shot dropping his cue just short of banging it on the floor and turning to the referee waiting for the call tells me that he knew it was a bad hit. I don't blame him, I don't think he was going to call the foul on himself. But his response after the shot it is really telling.

I put up what he said on why he reacted that way. He did think it was good, but knew it was close. He was just waiting for the ref.

 

[jbart65]

I think the person in the best position to actually see if it was good or not was Yapp. His reaction immediately after shooting the shot dropping his cue just short of banging it on the floor and turning to the referee waiting for the call tells me that he knew it was a bad hit. I don't blame him, I don't think he was going to call the foul on himself. But his response after the shot it is really telling.

No one knows what Yapp was thinking in the moment except Yapp himself (sometimes I am not even sure what I am thinking on such close shots).

In any case, Cornerman told us what Yapp said about why he reacted as he did. Sounds plausible to me. Cornerman's explanation also sounds plausible to me.

Hard for me to believe Yapp is lying.

Raises the question: Should refs based calls on physics. Marcel has done that, with some controversial results.

I am fine with humans making the call, even if it means some mistakes.

 

[WobblyStroke]

So, I thought it was a foul immediately, but now I am not sure. In fact, I've convinced myself that it's a good hit. This is the top view. If the 8-ball is hit last, the immediate motion off the 8-ball would have to follow the tangent line toward the brown area near the side pocket or it would stop I suppose. If it's a good hit, then the cueball will immediately follow the tangent of the 4-ball. That would be towards the yellow/green area, which is exactlly where cueball went. Maybe others see it different.

Why did Yapp hesitate and just stand there? He sent me a note, so this isn't conjecture. He knew it was really close and was waitng for the ref to confirm. The confused look was that the ref didn't say he won the match, so then it went through his head that maybe it was a Race to 13, and he didn't realize it.

View attachment 896712

Appreciate the insight with the note.
Slow mo is pretty clear 4 first tho.

 

[jbart65]

Appreciate the insight with the note.
Slow mo is pretty clear 4 first tho.

Not sure slo mo is relevant. Refs and players seldom have the advantage of slo mo in most pool matches. Not sure whether Predator even had instant replay available, as MR sometimes does on its TV table. Even then, the camera might not be at the right angle.

Unless pool becomes big, and Eagle Eye type technology is used, pool will never have the same advantage of instant replay or some such as other sports do.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Not sure slo mo is relevant. Refs and players seldom have the advantage of slo mo in most pool matches. Not sure whether Predator even had instant replay available, as MR sometimes does on its TV table. Even then, the camera might not be at the right angle.

Unless pool becomes big, and Eagle Eye type technology is used, pool will never have the same advantage of instant replay or some such as other sports do.

I agree slow mo shouldn't be used in games. Where the balls go is enough. And if it's too close to call, don't call a damn thing. I just mentioned the slow mo cuz cornerman said he wasn't so sure anymore it was a bad hit. It was.

 

[Railbird-2026]

I made a threat about his first one here, https://forums.azbilliards.com/thre...radona-making-a-goal-with-his-hands-d.579054/

But now he won again with a foul in the final rack.

I don't know whats up with Yapp and winning the final rack on a foul, however this one isn't his fault - he knew its a foul, he waited for the ref to call it, the ref was just so bad that she didn't know how to distinguish a foul/good shot in pocket billiards when balls are close, just like that other referee dude I forgot his name where he squints too hard to try & see which ball is hit first, thats not how to determine a foul in pool...EVER

The way to tell if its a foul or not is by the cueball reaction, very very very simple. You don't need to squint, you dont need to see both balls and eye-ball it to see which was hit first. It is very easy if you have pool knowledge, just look at the cueball and from a mile away you can see if its a foul or not (That goes for any two closely balls, or also a ball & rail very closely together) check the cueball reaction and you would know.

In a million years if he hit the 8ball first the cueball would NEVER follow the 8ball in its direction, literally you can see the whity going after the 8ball which indicates he hit the pueple first, if you hit the 8ball first then the purple 2nd then the cueball would react differently either going in between both balls (direction wise) or following the purple in its direction.

No need to zoom in, no need to squint, and for viewers with no knowledge about pool please dont try to zoom in, thats not how you determine this.

Clip of the shot in question.

(I don't know if i stamped it correctly, its the last shot of the match).

P.S. I love Yapp please don't get me wrong. Grats to him for winning the tournament, very well deserved, this time it's the ref fault. I know i mentioned this but look at his face when the 8ball was going to the pocket, he was waiting for the foul call he stared at the ref....also FSR knew its a fault but he's such a gentelmen and followed by what the ref called & went on with it as the crowd kept cheering, he didn't want to ruin the moment for Yapp, FSR is such a nice guy.

Bad Hit

 

[middleofnowhere]

No one knows what Yapp was thinking in the moment except Yapp himself (sometimes I am not even sure what I am thinking on such close shots).

In any case, Cornerman told us what Yapp said about why he reacted as he did. Sounds plausible to me. Cornerman's explanation also sounds plausible to me.

Hard for me to believe Yapp is lying.

Raises the question: Should refs based calls on physics. Marcel has done that, with some controversial results.

I am fine with humans making the call, even if it means some mistakes.

People can convince themselves of anything and not necessarily be lying. Just be at the scene of an accident. A guy runs a red light and eight people witness it and he says he didn't.

In baseball we now have the instant replay and umpires get overruled. I remember years ago before instant replays, seeing an umpire on the Johnny Carson show. Carson asked him did you ever make a wrong call? His answer was no. Once i makes the call that's what it is.

I also prefer the human element in pool. I like the idea of just racking the balls not using a template. There needs to be a certain randomness to the game. We don't need it to turn into a video game.

As far as Yapp, he didn't need the referee to tell him if it was good or not, he is in the best position to know. His immediate reaction is that of somebody who knows they just screwed up, then turns to the referee hoping he gets a favorable call.
The referee was actually in probably the wrong position to make the call. She should have been on that other side of the table right over the shot, not standing behind him.

It was just too much at stake both money and title to have been so casual about it. I don't think there was a camera on her when she acknowledged the call. I would like that a chance to see her and read her body language.

 

[Cornerman]

I agree slow mo shouldn't be used in games. Where the balls go is enough. And if it's too close to call, don't call a damn thing. I just mentioned the slow mo cuz cornerman said he wasn't so sure anymore it was a bad hit. It was.

I'll be clearer. I've seen just as many slow mo videos as anyone else. There is at least one video that it isn't clear at all if the 4-ball was hit first, and it looks like the 8-ball may have been hit first in that video. We literally cannot see the contact point since it's on the other side of the 8-ball. This is why refereess are trained at looking at the cueball path. Unless someone can give me a better analysis on where physics say the cueball would go on a bad hit vs good hit, the cueball path tells me the 4-ball was hit last as it followed the 4-ball tangent and not the 8-ball tangent.

 

[Cornerman]

Sharivari did a good job with the breakdown.

His shot at 4:00 he says is a foul, but it looked good to me. He isn't talking about tangents but rather full hits on the 2nd ball. So, this is a good analysis.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I'll be clearer. I've seen just as many slow mo videos as anyone else. There is at least one video that it isn't clear at all if the 4-ball was hit first, and it looks like the 8-ball may have been hit first in that video. We literally cannot see the contact point since it's on the other side of the 8-ball. This is why refereess are trained at looking at the cueball path. Unless someone can give me a better analysis on where physics say the cueball would go on a bad hit vs good hit, the cueball path tells me the 4-ball was hit last as it followed the 4-ball tangent and not the 8-ball tangent.

Ima have to set this up and hit it now. thanks lol.

As for explanation...

The CB goes (Yapp's) left of the 8's path. That's not possible unless it's 8 last.

 

[Jimmorrison]

Not a foul, because incompetent ref didn’t call it. Definitely a bad hit. For those referring to the tangent line, the original doesn’t exist, in relation to the eight ball. It is altered by the bad hit. There have been many recent threads about this exact thing, and so many people on the wrong side of it. This just reconfirms my policy of never allowing my opponent to call a foul. If there is no ref, I call it on myself. If my opponent wants to call a foul, he has to have video, that is conclusive.

 

[maha]

with that much space between them it likely wasnt a foul. or certainly too close to call.