Order in Team Tournaments

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Dimonis

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Been debating this for a month between my friends and would like to post the issue here for discussion and see what everyone else’s opinion is.


Next week is the VNEA 8 ball state tournament at Indianapolis and a friend who has played in the Masters division for years disagrees with how we want to do our team lineup and though I agree with his reasoning I am not sure I want to do it “his” way.


Last year we placed 9th and the basic strategy was that the last 2 games of the last round we had our strongest/most reliable players in those spots reason being that if you have to play those games you cannot afford mistakes.


If home your order stays the same for each round so we have an aggressive person leading off that sometimes cuts his own throat by not playing smart. He is always going to make a lot of balls but has the possibility of either running down and hooking himself thus giving the game away when the other person comes to the table or he manages to get out and really start us off good. Though he hasn’t let us down yet, deep down I worry about him under pressure, he pops pills all day to “steady his nerves”


Weakest/most unreliable person shoots second. May run out, may not make a ball.


Third is someone who is very capable of getting an ERO but sometimes doesn’t shoot his speed. Also he does not want to be the star in those super pressure games that you sometimes have to play. (last year we actually had this guy lead off, and the over aggressive one here.)


4th is very strong player


5th is strong and most consistent as well as doesn’t break down under pressure.


Sorry for the length of this but in order for you to give a fair opinion you had to know somewhat the characteristics of each.


The argument from the friend is that he feels we should switch players 1 and 4, that you need to start strong and finish strong and that momentum can make or break you, which I do agree with but there was many times last year where that 4th slot was very important, and determined what had to happen the last game, or if there even was a last game. Something that important I don’t want to leave to the guy who may get an ERO or then again may run down till he cant make any more balls and give the game away.


The other option I am tossing around is just taking Visitor every time. You get the break last round and have your strongest 3 as the last 3 games and the first round you start off with your strongest 3 so you end up “starting strong and finishing strong”. Only downside I can find to this is that you give up the break for the first round, which could put you in a rough spot if the other team starts off with a few break and runs, but is it more important to have the breaks the last round?? We played one or two teams last year where there was no last round due to point spread.


Though I don’t post often I have been reading this board for a long time and don’t think I have ever seen this come up. I respect a lot of peoples opinions from this board and would like to hear their take on it and reasoning.


Thanks and wish us luck next week!!


Tim
 
I can offer an informed opinion here as I've played VNEA for years and have had our team at state for about the last 7 or 8 years anyway and various years before that. We finished 9th last year, too.

Listen to your Master player, imho. You're playing for which team gets the most points, not the most games, right? This means a good start is more important than anything else. Jump right on 'em and don't let 'em up. We play the matches on two tables, so the fear factor seems to spread out a bit when two games are being played simultaneously.

As for various teammates caving under pressure, remember that state is not just for winning. (gasp!) It is also for learning and growing. If someone has to perform under pressure, great! Even if s/he caves, a lesson is learned. And NEXT year s/he will be much better...usually. Emphasize this with your players and this will help take the pressure off as they know losing isn't the end of the world, but just another step in the process of playing better and improving the team overall.

Our team has problems at state, too. We usually win our league, but because several of our players at state drink to drunkenness, stay up too late, do drugs excessively, don't get hotel reservations, don't show up on time, don't bring their cues, don't pay their share of the room or gas, etc. etc., we lose there when we shouldn't. I'm personally sick of this childish behavior and the waste of my time and money, so next year we're changing our lineup by dumping 2 or 3 of our good players. "Pick it up or get out" was our message last year and so they're getting out. They're friends and it's hard, but it's time to move on. I'm still stuck with an hard-core alcoholic, but he's a top level player (until he's stinkin' drunk after 20 beers or so---geez!). Now to find some substitute players before next fall.

I don't wish anyone luck, but play well, and let us know how it went.

Jeff Livingston
 
I hear ya on the problems part. Last year our second strongest or arguably strongest player wasted so many of his vacation days from work we had to last minute get a weak player to fill in for him till the weekend when he could get up there. Then, when he got there he was there in body but not in mind. Between every match he was driving everyone crazy trying to borrow cell phones to check up on his girlfriend. He was so bad he drove the 2 hours each way every day to go check on her. Last day of the tourney we had a match in the bag that would have guarenteed us 5th and he blew it for the simple reason he just didnt have it straight upstairs.

This year we told him he needed to be a little bit more responsible because we all shell out our hard earned cash to pay for rooms, etc and it was hard for us to have a good time when we were worrying whether or not he would even show up. He showed us what to expect when he couldnt even make it to league every week. One week he skipped for no other reason than to make a drug deal. Have known the guy for 20 years and yeah its hard to tell them the cold hard truth.

We booted him mid season. It wouldnt have mattered if he was pro level if they arent there they are worse than a 3 average person.

You are right, its not all about winning. I dont care if I finish 1st or 200th so long as I play up to my abilities I will be happy.
 
The team line up in VNEA can make the difference in the format when your mathematically out of it, the match is over. Because of this total pts format it is unwise to save your best player for last; simply because he might not get to play in that last round so you don't want to risk his not getting to playing the last round. Put your best up first in the last round whether you are home or visitor. If you have a guy/gal that is proven pressure player( one who's game elevates under pressure) they should anchor. The rest of the line up is a crap shoot.

The only other stragegy that I know works in team play where total pts apply is: If your team is setting on the lead do anything to avoid the 13 pt swing. An example would be in the beginning of a game and neither set of balls is a potential runout and/or the start up shot on the best set of balls is low % take the easy beginning shot and get what points you can off the table, then try and deal with your problem ball by opening it, making the great shot, or putting a ball in play; there by putting pressure on the incoming players game and hoping for an end game battle for the win. Even if this is making the table easy for the incoming player. The idea being that a 10-7,6,5 lose is better than the 10-zip or 10-1...I have to admit that this style of 8ball goes against my singles run&gun style of play but it does win close matches in the total pts team play matches.

I play on a team of all strong players, all A+ players. Our nemesis team used this stragegy to beat us many times before we noticed what they were doing and began using it ourselves...it works in the long run.
Sorry if this sounds confusing....
 
Leave the pressure player in the last spot but rest of the deck stack strongest to weakest or should the strong pressure player also be towards the top and then put worst player last, hoping they dont have to play at all.

Thanks for the feedback btw, seems general consensus is to drive your opponent into the ground so it doesnt come down to the last 2 games.
 
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