Pool Players opinions of the APA No Jump Cue rule.

Icon of Sin

Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
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I was recently discussing the no jump cue APA rule with a few other APA guys on the local APA forum and the best reason I heard for having it is that it:
By eliminating the use of a jump cue, it forces Higher skill level players to kick at balls making the match more fair for lower skill level players.
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They also when on to say that jumping with a full cue is allowed but the player must weigh his options before doing it and might think kicking at the ball is easier, etc etc etc.

Now Im sure that some of you will agree that 50 percent of the entire APA shooting nation is actual Pool Players like the people that post here. The other 50 percent are people that just like to get out of the house and have a few drinks and have fun and dont really practice or shoot any other time outside of league night. Since I cant really figure out if I am talking to pool players or just bangers at the local apa forum I figured I would ask here where I know we are all pool players (especailly because the APA in my area is probably only 25 percent pool players and 75 percent other).

What is your guys take on the APA not allowing jump cues, do you think it should be allowed, shouldnt be allowed, why? Lets hear from all players, not just APA guys here.
 
Absolutely

Jump cues SHOULD NOT be outlawed from ANY league, and regular league
play. First off, with the selection of jump cues out there that make jump
shots easier, a lower level player learns to jump balls faster and better than
he learns to kick at balls, THEREFORE I disagree with the APA statements
about it being fairer for lower skilled players. Besides a higher skilled players
usually hits the kicked at ball, and lower players usually miss most of the time.

CONCLUSION: It is just as important that a lower skilled player have the option to use a jump cue as a higher skilled player since the lower player may be able to jump a ball, but not be able to hit the object ball with a 1,2, 3, or 4 rail kick shot. THE APA SHOULD NOT RESTRICT THIS.
 
More often than not, if I am playing an APA match, its against another high ranked player. Odds are both of us have a jump cue and know how to use it. Since we are playing at a higher level than the sl2 or 3, I think they should be allowed. I can see a valid reason that the 2 or 3 shouldn't be attempting to use a jump cue. If I were a room owner, I would cringe every time it happened.

While we are on the subject, my other gripe is that the APA doesn't allow push-out after the break in 9 ball. I believe it is like handing a penalty to someone who makes a ball on the break, but gets a bad roll. The APA says it's because the lower skill level players don't know how to use it effectively. Hell, from what I have seen, some of the lower skilled players don't know how to use their pool cue effectively, but they still let them do it!

Steve
 
Icon of Sin said:
I was recently discussing the no jump cue APA rule with a few other APA guys on the local APA forum and the best reason I heard for having it is that it:

They also when on to say that jumping with a full cue is allowed but the player must weigh his options before doing it and might think kicking at the ball is easier, etc etc etc.

Now Im sure that some of you will agree that 50 percent of the entire APA shooting nation is actual Pool Players like the people that post here. The other 50 percent are people that just like to get out of the house and have a few drinks and have fun and don't really practice or shoot any other time outside of league night. Since I cant really figure out if I am talking to pool players or just bangers at the local apa forum I figured I would ask here where I know we are all pool players (especially because the APA in my area is probably only 25 percent pool players and 75 percent other).

What is your guys take on the APA not allowing jump cues, do you think it should be allowed, shouldn't be allowed, why? Lets hear from all players, not just APA guys here.
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I don't want to be King Contradiction, but I am on the side of disliking "intentional jumping" balls. I play both TAP and APA; TAP allows full use of jump cues and jumping balls, the APA does not, of course.

First off, I would debate the "real pool players" and APA leagues. SL2s and SL3s would get blown out of the water by just about anybody who frequents a pool hall.

The question is this; Would you want these type of guys attempting these types of shots on your home pool table? I think they are more like to damage the equipment than to execute a successful kick or shot. Likewise for an APA SL3, 4 or 5 (including myself as a SL5).

That's just my opinion.

I have to admit that I have seen more than a few very nice jumped balls on kicks and balls made by some skilled TAP leage shooters, so I am not leaning too far one way or the other.
 
I think one of the reasons for the rule is to, essentially, keep money out of it - i.e. one player having an advantage over another simply due to his/her willingness to drop some $$$ on a jump cue. There's an awful lot of APA players out there who don't own their own cue, they just grab a house cue.

That said - and I think I mentioned this in the other APA-centric thread recently - if not being able to play with a jump cue is a big issue for someone - they should drop APA and move on to a higher-level league - not necessarily just because they're miffed, but because (I figure) they're more serious about their game than your average APA player, and should start playing more with other like-minded folks.

And I'm taking about myself here as well - I've been looking to pick up another league, a BCA or VNEA league, on a different night than my APA league. I'm still a six in APA, so I'm not so beyond everyone that I feel like I need to leave APA just yet, though. Plus I like my team. :D
 
The damaging equipment factor is definately something that could be easily fixed as there is already an mention of it in the rule book for MASSE's.

In the APA rules, if a bar disallows masse's then the players are not allowed to play them. The bar can disallow jump shots as well if they were really worried about the felt. Im pretty sure the APA wasnt even thinking about the bar owners or table felt when they came up with the no jump cue rule.

The other reason I thought was kind of lame was the one Scott mentioned above (no offense Scott). The rule that not all players have one. Not all players have there own break cue yet they are allowed, the same could be said for custom cues, the same could be said for phenolic tips when breaking. That one is just stretching it to me.
 
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pooltchr said:
Hell, from what I have seen, some of the lower skilled players don't know how to use their pool cue effectively, but they still let them do it!

Steve
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Thanks for the laugh :D
 
Icon of Sin said:
The damaging equipment factor is definately something that could be easily fixed as there is already an mention of it in the rule book for MASSE's.

In the APA rules, if a bar disallows masse's then the players are not allowed to play them. The bar can disallow jump shots as well if they were really worried about the felt. Im pretty sure the APA wasnt even thinking about the bar owners or table felt when they came up with the no jump cue rule.

The other reason I thought was kind of lame was the one Scott mentioned above (no offense Scott). The rule that not all players have one. Not all players have there own break cue yet they are allowed, the same could be said for custom cues, the same could be said for phenolic tips when breaking. That one is just stretching it to me.
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I totally agree with you there Icon, I'm pretty sure that in my league almost every team has at least one person on thier team that has a jump cue. If they're anything like my team then a jump cue or a break cue is a team resource and is available for everybody on the team.

You've just provided me with one more reason why I wouldn't join a CPA ( APA in Canada) team.
 
ScottW said:
I think one of the reasons for the rule is to, essentially, keep money out of it - i.e. one player having an advantage over another simply due to his/her willingness to drop some $$$ on a jump cue. There's an awful lot of APA players out there who don't own their own cue, they just grab a house cue.
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Heck, my jump cue was made by taking the shaft of a cheapie cue I bought on ebay, cutting the shaft below the ferrule, and installing a phenolic tip right on the wood. I bought a lightweight hardwood dowel at the hardware store, cut it down and drilled it out and epoxied a 5/16 X 18 bolt into it, cut the assembled cue's butt so it was the requisite 40 inches long. Does it jump? You betcha!:D

Out of pocket cost for my homemade jump cue? Probably $1 for the dowel, 20 cents for the bolt (if that), the epoxy I had already, phenolic tip for $3. Total: $5 at most.

Money's not the issue.

Flex
 
Flex said:
Heck, my jump cue was made by taking the shaft of a cheapie cue I bought on ebay, cutting the shaft below the ferrule, and installing a phenolic tip right on the wood. I bought a lightweight hardwood dowel at the hardware store, cut it down and drilled it out and epoxied a 5/16 X 18 bolt into it, cut the assembled cue's butt so it was the requisite 40 inches long. Does it jump? You betcha!:D

Out of pocket cost for my homemade jump cue? Probably $1 for the dowel, 20 cents for the bolt (if that), the epoxy I had already, phenolic tip for $3. Total: $5 at most.

Money's not the issue.

Flex
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I guess that cheapie cue was really cheap. You haven't figured it in the total cost!! But you are right money is not the reason.
Jump cues should not be allowed because the skill level of the majority of the APA players is not and never will be sufficent to allow for proficent use. Possible damage to the equipment is also an issue.
 
rackem said:
I guess that cheapie cue was really cheap. You haven't figured it in the total cost!! But you are right money is not the reason.
Jump cues should not be allowed because the skill level of the majority of the APA players is not and never will be sufficent to allow for proficent use. Possible damage to the equipment is also an issue.
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Well, the cheapie cue was already broken, warped, firewood...

Didn't cost anything from the standpoint of having to spend anything on it. It originally cost me a whole $12.99 on ebay.

As for whether the "skill level of the majority of the APA players is not and never will be sufficent to allow for proficent use," there are some pretty decent players on the Chicago pool scene, who shall remain nameless, who can't jump worth a flip. They inveigh against jump cues because they can't use them, although that isn't the reason they give. They don't like it because it's a tool they can't use, and see it as an advantage for their opponent. Whenever I'm playing someone for jelly beans and they start to shark me during the match saying they won't let me use the jump cue next time we play, I suggest we just stop playing right then. They're trying to get my jelly beans, and if I don't play them, they come up dry.

As for someone developing the skill to use one adequately without any danger to the equipment, it's not at all tough. Perhaps the room owner might ask someone to demonstrate proficiency before the match on a table with cloth needing to be replaced. Most pool halls have several of those...:D

Obviously, it's possible to rip the cloth if somebody doesn't know how to jump. If someone owns a jump cue, they can probably jump reasonably well. Put another way, I've never seen anybody who owns a jump cue who can't jump with it.

By the way, I made two butts for my jumper, one is very light. It'll jump balls quite easily that are a chalk's width away from the cue ball. Dart stroke. Piece of cake. Can everyone do it? Of course not. Is it easy to do? I think so.

Flex
 
So what is the next rule...since the lower players can't play effective safes, safe play is not allowed???
 
Just ban jump shots period. It's a gimicky shot. If God had wanted us to play pool in the clouds, he'd have put Simonis up there.
 
Raodwarior said:
So what is the next rule...since the lower players can't play effective safes, safe play is not allowed???
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Hey, don't give them any ideas. I heard that playing an obvious safety or defensive shot will hurt your ratings.

Flex
 
Back To Reality

First, one has to reach about a 5 level before they even think about getting a jump cue, and it it is usually AFTER a good player, much better than they are, tells them it is time they get one.

A 2 or 3 would not have a jump cue. It is possible, with the onslaught of
jump cues out and public awareness of jump shots today, that some 4's
might have one trying to learn how to use it.

It is like anything else, people usually reach a plateau where it is then and only then acceptable to expand their game and their equipment. Jump cues and Break cues come along later after a player gets so good.

Lets not be unrealistic and say Oh my god, all those 2 and 3's trying to jump balls. It isn't going to happen. It is the same for getting special clubs in golf, you don't do that until you know what the heck you are doing.

And I have to laugh at all this APA7 stuff. In the real world, on a 2-12
money ball scale, and APA7 could be a 7-12 on the money ball scale, so an
APA7 has a very wide range for ability and sandbagging.
 
I suppose the APA should allow use. There are the obvious reasons why not, I guess, such as the lower skilled players don't know how to use, possible equipment damage, etc. I think the idea that lower skill players don't know how to use them properly is probably an accurate reason why APA doesn't generally allow them (in the regular leagues), because I believe in the new APA Masters divisions, jump cues are allowed.

As a side note, I also agree the no pushout rule is absolute crap. At least give us the option. Even if I don't really understand totally how to use a pushout effectively, at least I can push the CB out somewhere that I will at least have a hit on the ball. With no pushout, I can be impossibly snookered by the other player's bad break, and be forced to give up BIH. Which is garbage.
 
Snapshot9 said:
First, one has to reach about a 5 level before they even think about getting a jump cue, and it it is usually AFTER a good player, much better than they are, tells them it is time they get one.

A 2 or 3 would not have a jump cue. It is possible, with the onslaught of
jump cues out and public awareness of jump shots today, that some 4's
might have one trying to learn how to use it.

It is like anything else, people usually reach a plateau where it is then and only then acceptable to expand their game and their equipment. Jump cues and Break cues come along later after a player gets so good.
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I have found that when someone has told me I shouldn't be trying certain kinds of shots or trying to do certain things on the pool table that that is exactly where I'm going to put some effort, at least, to see if I can improve in that area.

There's a fellow I know in Chicago who no longer has the heart but at one time played at the pro level. He's totally against jump cues, although he can use them quite well. He says it takes 30 years to learn how to kick but 5 minutes to jump, so jumping shouldn't be allowed. Give me a freakin' break. It sure didn't take me 30 years to learn how to kick. It took study, and practice, and learning three rail kicks ala Jimmy Reid and adjusting for different tables and so on. Also knowing how your cue plays, and how to stroke the ball, and where to put a tad bit of english, etc. etc. It was very frustrating at first, and I spent hours at it. But guess what? I at least have an idea what I'm doing. Ditto for jumping. I saw someone demonstrating it with a Jacoby jump cue. He showed me how to do it, but he didn't really know how to himself. So I asked a pro how to do it, and he told me. His two minutes of advice on how to jump, plus what kind of jump cues were better and so on, lead me to experiment. And by golly I can jump the balls... Where was I in the skill level department when I started that? I haven't a clue.

But I do know that having the will, I found a way. And if I had to wait for someone much better than me to suggest I should start learning how to jump, I'd not be anywhere now, for nobody, that's right, nobody suggested I should learn how to jump.

At this point, it's an important tool in my game. I can tell you something else. The BCA certified instructor who gave me lessons never even suggested jumping anything, but one evening, when warming up for a tournament, he knew I could jump and asked me whether I preferred jumping or kicking. My answer: whatever is a higher percentage shot for me. Did he like that? Not if he was going to play me.

He also said I shouldn't be working on breaking. Give me a break!

Blackjack Dave taught me how to break, from his writings. If the break he teaches leads me to win a tournament, and actually it has on more than one occasion, I'll take his advice in other areas too.

Where there's good advice and suggestions I'm all ears.

I routinely show people who haven't a clue how to jump. And I show them how some jump cues work more easily than others. Why would I do that?

Because I love the game.

Flex
 
Flex said:
I have found that when someone has told me I shouldn't be trying certain kinds of shots or trying to do certain things on the pool table that that is exactly where I'm going to put some effort, at least, to see if I can improve in that area.

There's a fellow I know in Chicago who no longer has the heart but at one time played at the pro level. He's totally against jump cues, although he can use them quite well. He says it takes 30 years to learn how to kick but 5 minutes to jump, so jumping shouldn't be allowed. Give me a freakin' break. It sure didn't take me 30 years to learn how to kick. It took study, and practice, and learning three rail kicks ala Jimmy Reid and adjusting for different tables and so on. Also knowing how your cue plays, and how to stroke the ball, and where to put a tad bit of english, etc. etc. It was very frustrating at first, and I spent hours at it. But guess what? I at least have an idea what I'm doing. Ditto for jumping. I saw someone demonstrating it with a Jacoby jump cue. He showed me how to do it, but he didn't really know how to himself. So I asked a pro how to do it, and he told me. His two minutes of advice on how to jump, plus what kind of jump cues were better and so on, lead me to experiment. And by golly I can jump the balls... Where was I in the skill level department when I started that? I haven't a clue.

But I do know that having the will, I found a way. And if I had to wait for someone much better than me to suggest I should start learning how to jump, I'd not be anywhere now, for nobody, that's right, nobody suggested I should learn how to jump.

At this point, it's an important tool in my game. I can tell you something else. The BCA certified instructor who gave me lessons never even suggested jumping anything, but one evening, when warming up for a tournament, he knew I could jump and asked me whether I preferred jumping or kicking. My answer: whatever is a higher percentage shot for me. Did he like that? Not if he was going to play me.

He also said I shouldn't be working on breaking. Give me a break!

Blackjack Dave taught me how to break, from his writings. If the break he teaches leads me to win a tournament, and actually it has on more than one occasion, I'll take his advice in other areas too.

Where there's good advice and suggestions I'm all ears.

I routinely show people who haven't a clue how to jump. And I show them how some jump cues work more easily than others. Why would I do that?

Because I love the game.

Flex
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Very well said.:)

Richard
 
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