Pool rules vs. Honesty and Integrity

[Terry Erdman]

It has puzzled me for years about the differences between golf and pool rules and the associated interpretations of the rules for both. I have played both games for years and the basic difference that I see is that golf is a game of honesty if played properly and if you commit a foul you are expected to call it on yourself or you are considered cheating. Such as causing a golf ball to move unintentionally or double hitting a chip which is similar to double hitting the cue ball while stroking. Most golfers will call a penalty on themselves ( as the old story of Bobby Jones when he came out of the woods at Augusta and declared a penalty for his ball moving. Someone asked why he said anything as no one could have seen it and his reply is "I knew it and I would have been cheating myself") and it seems that most pool players will remain silent until the opponent asks if they commited a foul. Some pool players will admit the foul while others will argue about the hit and say they thought it was good. In a pool tournament I was playing a national referee who comitted a foul and he did not admit it until I called him on it. Granted a referee is called if a shot is questionable but many times you don't expect a person to foul and they do. In the APA you must warn a player of the possibility of a bad hit before they shoot or you cannot call it afterward. The reasoning is there are a lot of inexperienced players and they don't know better. I feel that to not call a double hit on yourself if cheating! Many players feel that it is the responsibility of the opponent to watch and be aware of the other player's actions and if he is not paying attention then "tough". I think that Efren is the "Bobby Jones" of pool and he would call it and some other professionals would be "deaf mutes". Would you tell your opponent if they were shooting the wrong balls in 8 ball eventhough you have no obligation to do so? Maybe and maybe not, depending on if your opponent is an "asshole" or not.
My point is that golf is condsidered an honorable game and you are taught the rules and ettiquite (sp) from the beginning and as compared to pool the rules seem to take some honesty out of it and favor "cheating". Doesn't it seem odd that one game is considered respectable and the other game is not! Enough all ready!!! They change the rules in basketball, golf, and football every year so how about changing some rules for pool and cleaning up the integrity issue! " My name is Terry and I approve of this statment."

 

[THE SILENCER]

very nice post, and i agree. personally when i play in non tournament play, i ALWAYS call fouls on myself without fail, however in big tournament situations to honest, if i foul, and no one calls it, then i keep my mouth shut, hey, it's for big money, and i feel the burdon of proof is on them, not me! it's like someone calling the waitress over and telling her, "hey, asshole, you forgot to charge one of us for a steak" i wouldn't do that, would you?

 

[Terry Erdman]

very nice post, and i agree. personally when i play in non tournament play, i ALWAYS call fouls on myself without fail, however in big tournament situations to honest, if i foul, and no one calls it, then i keep my mouth shut, hey, it's for big money, and i feel the burdon of proof is on them, not me! it's like someone calling the waitress over and telling her, "hey, asshole, you forgot to charge one of us for a steak" i wouldn't do that, would you?

That's my point! Yes, even in a big tournament it is more important to call a foul on yourself. So, Bernie, you only cheat for bigger money? Otherwise you are fairly honest? Nuf said.

 

[Johnson]

I would consider myself an honest person, but since i started playing pool again this year competing in a league has change my views about how honest to be. I watched my teammates playing, and saw that their opponents weren't calling fouls so why should i call a foul on myself? The vnea rules only the two people playing can call fouls which i think is garbage. I view this the same way as getting lucky in 9 ball, over time normally it will even out. Does it come down to treat others how you want to be treated? or treat others how you think they would treat you? After watching a lot of fouls that the shooter did not call on themselves i go with treat others how they would treat you. I believe honesty is a very valuable quality in any person, but you have to go with the flow i think. The players who don't see the foul and call it, i would call this survival of the fittest player, and they will probably deservingly lose. If you don't know the rules of the game, then you have no business playing.
In tennis you call the shots in or out, and it's funny, myself i'm overly honest, and try to be extremely fair, and you think that someone will give u the benefit of the doubt, and sometimes you will have a shot and you try to watch where the ball hits(in or out) and sometimes you can't get a good view, and maybe i thought it was out, but wasn't sure, and i will ask the opponent if they saw it, and never in any organized match do i recall someone calling their shot out. I say go with the flow, wouldn't the ethics of the game be what the majority of the players practice? Or would it be in how the individual player handles the situation. That's how i rationalize it.
________

 

[JPB]

It has puzzled me for years about the differences between golf and pool rules and the associated interpretations of the rules for both. I have played both games for years and the basic difference that I see is that golf is a game of honesty if played properly and if you commit a foul you are expected to call it on yourself or you are considered cheating. Such as causing a golf ball to move unintentionally or double hitting a chip which is similar to double hitting the cue ball while stroking. Most golfers will call a penalty on themselves ( as the old story of Bobby Jones when he came out of the woods at Augusta and declared a penalty for his ball moving. Someone asked why he said anything as no one could have seen it and his reply is "I knew it and I would have been cheating myself") and it seems that most pool players will remain silent until the opponent asks if they commited a foul. Some pool players will admit the foul while others will argue about the hit and say they thought it was good. In a pool tournament I was playing a national referee who comitted a foul and he did not admit it until I called him on it. Granted a referee is called if a shot is questionable but many times you don't expect a person to foul and they do. In the APA you must warn a player of the possibility of a bad hit before they shoot or you cannot call it afterward. The reasoning is there are a lot of inexperienced players and they don't know better. I feel that to not call a double hit on yourself if cheating! Many players feel that it is the responsibility of the opponent to watch and be aware of the other player's actions and if he is not paying attention then "tough". I think that Efren is the "Bobby Jones" of pool and he would call it and some other professionals would be "deaf mutes". Would you tell your opponent if they were shooting the wrong balls in 8 ball eventhough you have no obligation to do so? Maybe and maybe not, depending on if your opponent is an "asshole" or not.
My point is that golf is condsidered an honorable game and you are taught the rules and ettiquite (sp) from the beginning and as compared to pool the rules seem to take some honesty out of it and favor "cheating". Doesn't it seem odd that one game is considered respectable and the other game is not! Enough all ready!!! They change the rules in basketball, golf, and football every year so how about changing some rules for pool and cleaning up the integrity issue! " My name is Terry and I approve of this statment."

Good point. I tend to agree, and I also think leagues with their ridiculous gamesmanship will make the situation worse in pool. I have played golf for years and agree that golf has a better 'culture of honesty." But I have also played enough to know not all golfers buy into the "culture." So it's not so simple.


This may be one area where the gambling ethos in pool created a different game. Gamblers might not cheat, but they might not call something on themselves or they may take full advantage of a situtation. (not all do this of course, but gambling creates a more cutthroat environment overall IMO.) I think when golgfers gamble, the same thing happens, perhaps more so. It is easier to cheat at golf and I think it goes on sometimes, particularly when guys gamble. I think back in the day (or on the European our sometime back) barefoot caddies could tee it up for players in the rough and they sometimes carried extra balls. Now the gambler w/ the fastest cart may have the best lie pretty consistently.

Overall though I agree. Part of it is the gambling culture and part of it is the fact that pool has no tradition of amateurism, and frankly no amateurs. There is no governing body separate from the trade group that has real rules and protects amateur status. The sportsmanship ethos in golf starts with amateur golf. Byt the time the relatively few pros make it as pros, they have learned that. I actually think that golf is loosening up too much on amateur status and doesn't punish people enough for certain transgressions. Every podunk club gets away with calcuttas now, which should clearly result in the loss of amateur status for those bidding or anybody who takes money from bidders. I actually avoid that in golf, and will never bid on myself in a calcutta. In pool it doesn't matter since there is no such thing as amateur status. All of us on this board have probably won cash, albeit small amounts, in tournaments. It disappoints me that people are willing to skirt the rules of amateur status in golf. I hated playing in our club championship last year. Traditionally club championships were a series of matches in different flights for awful trophies and a package of socks. Now people want a quick 2 day stroke play with plenty of prizes. While within the rules (except for certain side action like calcuttas) these undermine the tradition of amateurism. I'll pay for my clubs thanks, and would rather have a 15 entry to win a plastic trophy than a 100 entry with a lot of prizes.