L
L.S. Dennis
Guest
Can someone please tell what the difference is between Pro Express and Texas Express rules is? This has come recently and there seems to be some confusion about it.
preacher_eric
Registered
While I'm no expert, I don't think there is a difference. My guess is that the term Pro Express is slowly replacing the term Texas Express just because it sounds better and more professional. Wouldn't you rather play in a tournament that uses the professional sounding Pro Express rules rather than the amateurish sounding Texas Express rules? It’s a simple euphemism, like “pre-owned vehicle” instead of “used car”. It’s also a moot point because nobody except Grady Mathews plays by the old rules anyway.
A
AndyG
Guest
Question for Mike Janis
Hi Mike,
Speaking of differences in rule sets, which are you using on the Viking Tour?
AndyG
Hi Mike,
Speaking of differences in rule sets, which are you using on the Viking Tour?
AndyG
Pro Express Rules
Hi L.S.,
A couple of new "Pro" 9 Ball rules that my apply here:
Because some of the "Pro" tournaments use the Sardo Rack, the nine ball is on the spot rather than the one ball. Without that rule, a ball goes in every time. Discuss that with Lou Sardo some time as I did. On the positive side, Sardo does put money into both the "Pro" and amateur side of pool.
Another is four balls MUST pass the side pockets on the opening break. Any object ball pocketed counts as one of the balls. Failure to do so gives your opponent cue ball in hand. Ever watch Cory practice his soft break??? Perhaps his "slump", as one poster suggested he is in a while ago, may simply be the loss of this winning break!
Most of us play cue ball fouls only. "Pro" tournament referees now call an object ball foul if you are bridged up over an object ball stroking the cue ball. If the ball you are bridged over moves, a foul is called. I've seen too many variations of this.
One rule I hope the "Pro" tournaments adopt is RACK YOUR OWN. Boy does this reduce very public arguments.
Hi L.S.,
A couple of new "Pro" 9 Ball rules that my apply here:
Because some of the "Pro" tournaments use the Sardo Rack, the nine ball is on the spot rather than the one ball. Without that rule, a ball goes in every time. Discuss that with Lou Sardo some time as I did. On the positive side, Sardo does put money into both the "Pro" and amateur side of pool.
Another is four balls MUST pass the side pockets on the opening break. Any object ball pocketed counts as one of the balls. Failure to do so gives your opponent cue ball in hand. Ever watch Cory practice his soft break??? Perhaps his "slump", as one poster suggested he is in a while ago, may simply be the loss of this winning break!
Most of us play cue ball fouls only. "Pro" tournament referees now call an object ball foul if you are bridged up over an object ball stroking the cue ball. If the ball you are bridged over moves, a foul is called. I've seen too many variations of this.
One rule I hope the "Pro" tournaments adopt is RACK YOUR OWN. Boy does this reduce very public arguments.
L
L.S. Dennis
Guest
Yes I agree rack your own is unquestionable better. Reno has had it in effect for foe the past few years now and thing have run much more smoothly since the adoption took place.
I personally would like to see "Grady's Rules" be adopted as the standard and once and for all give this game the purity that is deserves. I realize it's just wishful thing though!
I personally would like to see "Grady's Rules" be adopted as the standard and once and for all give this game the purity that is deserves. I realize it's just wishful thing though!
Pro Rules
Hi L.S.,
Yes, your very right! Reno Rules! Pardon the pun! I had a great time there last month, again. Even my match with Frankie Hernandez went very smoothly. I play him on this side of the country often. Virtually every match he plays over here has some excitement about the rack.
Several years ago, I attended the Cleveland Open 9 Ball / 10 Ball & 14.1 Event. I was asked to referee a match between Grady and honestly, I don't remember. Grady sat the entire match with his back to the table. His expaination was "he did not wish to see slop shots, misses that go in the wrong pockets and other various 9 ball garbage. When we play call pocket pool, I will stop this sillyness"! When his opponent missed or played safe, I mentioned to Grady that it was his table. I respected him then and I still do all these years later.
Hi L.S.,
Yes, your very right! Reno Rules! Pardon the pun! I had a great time there last month, again. Even my match with Frankie Hernandez went very smoothly. I play him on this side of the country often. Virtually every match he plays over here has some excitement about the rack.
Several years ago, I attended the Cleveland Open 9 Ball / 10 Ball & 14.1 Event. I was asked to referee a match between Grady and honestly, I don't remember. Grady sat the entire match with his back to the table. His expaination was "he did not wish to see slop shots, misses that go in the wrong pockets and other various 9 ball garbage. When we play call pocket pool, I will stop this sillyness"! When his opponent missed or played safe, I mentioned to Grady that it was his table. I respected him then and I still do all these years later.
T
texasexpress
Guest
Texas Express Rules Author
FYI ..
The Texas Express 9 Ball Rules were authored and invented by our group in the early 70's .. as a result of having far too many players in a particular Texas event with few too many tables to use to complete a 2 day event. "Old-Timers" certainly remember the original rules ( 2 foul ) that were in place prior to T.E. Rules and the ( long ) time it took to play a match utilizing those rules. As a result of the T.E. Rules, many other organizations "adopted" parts and pieces as they saw fit to use, including the BCA and the Pros. The Texas Express Rules have been updated as needed as a result of over a quarter century of actual tournament events promoted by The Texas Express Promotions Group. These rules were changed as a result of observation and input from thousands of actual tournament settings .. and as a result .. are now some 20+ pages of in-depth rules explanations to cover as many of the situations that occur in the game of 9 ball. Many of the following are T.E. innovations ( that were borrowed from T.E. by the aforementioned organizations ), i.e., ball in hand after 1 foul; rack your own; ( 6.24 ) ( T.E. ) masse or jump shot interference; and, many other particular situational explanations that appear in the rules. I note that AZ Billiards is polling ( as of 7/8/03 )and asking website viewers their preference for their use of 9 ball rules from the following: BCA/World Standard or Texas Express or Pro Express. The results through today show that T.E. Rules are dominant .. having more votes that the other 2 combined. We believe it to be due to the grass roots following of T.E. over the years combined with the clarity and in-depth explanations of T.E. Rules vs. the others. If you wish to view or print the Legitimate and Updated Original set of T.E. Rules visit our website at: www.texasexpress.com .. or email for any and all questions pertaining to this forum ... John McChesney/Chairman-C.E.O. - Texas Express
FYI ..
The Texas Express 9 Ball Rules were authored and invented by our group in the early 70's .. as a result of having far too many players in a particular Texas event with few too many tables to use to complete a 2 day event. "Old-Timers" certainly remember the original rules ( 2 foul ) that were in place prior to T.E. Rules and the ( long ) time it took to play a match utilizing those rules. As a result of the T.E. Rules, many other organizations "adopted" parts and pieces as they saw fit to use, including the BCA and the Pros. The Texas Express Rules have been updated as needed as a result of over a quarter century of actual tournament events promoted by The Texas Express Promotions Group. These rules were changed as a result of observation and input from thousands of actual tournament settings .. and as a result .. are now some 20+ pages of in-depth rules explanations to cover as many of the situations that occur in the game of 9 ball. Many of the following are T.E. innovations ( that were borrowed from T.E. by the aforementioned organizations ), i.e., ball in hand after 1 foul; rack your own; ( 6.24 ) ( T.E. ) masse or jump shot interference; and, many other particular situational explanations that appear in the rules. I note that AZ Billiards is polling ( as of 7/8/03 )and asking website viewers their preference for their use of 9 ball rules from the following: BCA/World Standard or Texas Express or Pro Express. The results through today show that T.E. Rules are dominant .. having more votes that the other 2 combined. We believe it to be due to the grass roots following of T.E. over the years combined with the clarity and in-depth explanations of T.E. Rules vs. the others. If you wish to view or print the Legitimate and Updated Original set of T.E. Rules visit our website at: www.texasexpress.com .. or email for any and all questions pertaining to this forum ... John McChesney/Chairman-C.E.O. - Texas Express
L
L.S. Dennis
Guest
Cardiac and who ever else may be interested, here's an old post by Grady in which he explains his set of rules specificaly well. After "road Testing" this rules out for a while they are now they only ones that I play with. I wish more tournaments would give them a try, good players would love them!
Here's Grady's rules once again as explained by Grady.
Grady's 9 Ball Rules
01/30/03 10:17 AM Edit Reply Quote
I have had seven tournaments using these rules. The games were not slowed down and more than 90% of the players loved the rules.
One year at the US Open 9-Ball a vote was taken among the 99 players in attendance. 98 of them voted for my rules and everything went very smoothly.
Mike Sigel, Wade Crane, Nick Varner, and I, at the behest of the then MPBA, were commissioned to come up with the best rules. We worked independently of each other, yet with only minor differences we came up with pretty much the same rules. They were never used.
I think it's disgraceful for a player to miss a ball badly and win a game or a match because of it. My rules will again be used at our Senior tournament in Naples, Florida in June.
If anybody wants to see how they work in real tournament play my back pocket 9 ball tournament and the senior event that I had in Portland, Maine featured these rules. Accu-Stats has tapes from these tournaments. Without further ado, here they are:
It's call shot but it is not necessary to call obvious shots.
Only one ball may be called on one shot.
If the called ball is pocketed legally, everything else that might go is good.
If a plyer misses a called shot, his opponent has the option of taking the shot or having his opponent shoot again.
Nothing spots up except the 9 ball.
If a player calls "safe" and inadvertently pockets a ball(s), his opponent has the option of taking the shot or having his opponent shoot again.
A player may not call safe and pocket a ball.
While this is not a foul, remember that the opponent will have "option".
Players rack their own balls.
They may also have a friend rack the balls for them.
An opponent may not rack the balls.
The nine ball must be pocketed last to win the game.
Where not mentioned herein the general rules of pocket billiards shall apply.
Here's Grady's rules once again as explained by Grady.
Grady's 9 Ball Rules
01/30/03 10:17 AM Edit Reply Quote
I have had seven tournaments using these rules. The games were not slowed down and more than 90% of the players loved the rules.
One year at the US Open 9-Ball a vote was taken among the 99 players in attendance. 98 of them voted for my rules and everything went very smoothly.
Mike Sigel, Wade Crane, Nick Varner, and I, at the behest of the then MPBA, were commissioned to come up with the best rules. We worked independently of each other, yet with only minor differences we came up with pretty much the same rules. They were never used.
I think it's disgraceful for a player to miss a ball badly and win a game or a match because of it. My rules will again be used at our Senior tournament in Naples, Florida in June.
If anybody wants to see how they work in real tournament play my back pocket 9 ball tournament and the senior event that I had in Portland, Maine featured these rules. Accu-Stats has tapes from these tournaments. Without further ado, here they are:
It's call shot but it is not necessary to call obvious shots.
Only one ball may be called on one shot.
If the called ball is pocketed legally, everything else that might go is good.
If a plyer misses a called shot, his opponent has the option of taking the shot or having his opponent shoot again.
Nothing spots up except the 9 ball.
If a player calls "safe" and inadvertently pockets a ball(s), his opponent has the option of taking the shot or having his opponent shoot again.
A player may not call safe and pocket a ball.
While this is not a foul, remember that the opponent will have "option".
Players rack their own balls.
They may also have a friend rack the balls for them.
An opponent may not rack the balls.
The nine ball must be pocketed last to win the game.
Where not mentioned herein the general rules of pocket billiards shall apply.
You said it yourself "good players would love them!". True the 1,000-2,000 better players will love Grady's rules but what about the other 10,000,000 people that play?
The World Standardized rules are the most widely used rules around the world. I think that the standard has already been chosen and everybody else should conform. One single set of rules for everybody would help our sport. I have recently talked with other tour and tournament directors and found out some are using World Standardized, Pro Express, Texas Express and a mix of each. A lot of the directors say they are using TE rules but with some modifications (like: No Jump Cues, No Jumps Period and different racking or breaking methods) but thay say they are using Te rules. I say they are using modified TE rules. Not taking anything away from the folks that created TE rules, In fact I thank them but it seems they no longer update them or have any comittee to evaluate them. So since the World body has the needed input and comittees we should all start using the World Satndardized system. If you look at most tournaments abroad, they are using them and have been for quite some time.
In regards to the Poll and the main page about the rules, I think it is corrupt. Not that anybody is cheating or misreporting the #r's or anything. It's just that people (newbies) or (spectators) think they are playing Te rules in there local events but they are not because the TD changed them to his own liking and still says they are TE rules.
Also, just as a note: The next time you go to any 9-ball tournament and see or are told a particular set of rules being used, ask the TD for a printed copy of them or at least make sure they are posted somewhere in the tournament area. I bet a lot of you will be surprised what the answers are if you asked if there are any modifications to the rules for the event you are at.
regarding my thoughts about why we should all conform to one single set of 9-ball rules:
I was just finishing my presentation for my sponsors and potential sponsors of the Viking Cue 9-Ball Tour that I will pas out at the BCA Trade Show and the opening statement reads like this
"As yo know, the key to the continueing growth of pool and your company is organization and raising the awareness of our great sport."
That line sais a lot "ORGANIZATION". My thoughts are that we should have more organization with our great sport. And one of the major factors to start off with is the rules. I know some of you understand this philosophy and I hope the rest of you will come to understand it.
As a promoter of our sport I am always striving to make things better. The better our sport is organized the better our chances of getting major sponsors.
I could go on for hours about this subject but i gotta go now. There's just one more thing I have to say before my plane leaves.
And that is:
Thank You, thank you, John McChesney, Robin Adair and the rest of the Texas Express crew that laid the foundation for most of the
rules we use today.
Respectfully,
Mike Janis
Owner/Director/Promoter of
The Viking Cue 9-Ball Tour
and Promoter of the new "Super Tour"
Both of which use World Standardized Rules.
The World Standardized rules are the most widely used rules around the world. I think that the standard has already been chosen and everybody else should conform. One single set of rules for everybody would help our sport. I have recently talked with other tour and tournament directors and found out some are using World Standardized, Pro Express, Texas Express and a mix of each. A lot of the directors say they are using TE rules but with some modifications (like: No Jump Cues, No Jumps Period and different racking or breaking methods) but thay say they are using Te rules. I say they are using modified TE rules. Not taking anything away from the folks that created TE rules, In fact I thank them but it seems they no longer update them or have any comittee to evaluate them. So since the World body has the needed input and comittees we should all start using the World Satndardized system. If you look at most tournaments abroad, they are using them and have been for quite some time.
In regards to the Poll and the main page about the rules, I think it is corrupt. Not that anybody is cheating or misreporting the #r's or anything. It's just that people (newbies) or (spectators) think they are playing Te rules in there local events but they are not because the TD changed them to his own liking and still says they are TE rules.
Also, just as a note: The next time you go to any 9-ball tournament and see or are told a particular set of rules being used, ask the TD for a printed copy of them or at least make sure they are posted somewhere in the tournament area. I bet a lot of you will be surprised what the answers are if you asked if there are any modifications to the rules for the event you are at.
regarding my thoughts about why we should all conform to one single set of 9-ball rules:
I was just finishing my presentation for my sponsors and potential sponsors of the Viking Cue 9-Ball Tour that I will pas out at the BCA Trade Show and the opening statement reads like this
"As yo know, the key to the continueing growth of pool and your company is organization and raising the awareness of our great sport."
That line sais a lot "ORGANIZATION". My thoughts are that we should have more organization with our great sport. And one of the major factors to start off with is the rules. I know some of you understand this philosophy and I hope the rest of you will come to understand it.
As a promoter of our sport I am always striving to make things better. The better our sport is organized the better our chances of getting major sponsors.
I could go on for hours about this subject but i gotta go now. There's just one more thing I have to say before my plane leaves.
And that is:
Thank You, thank you, John McChesney, Robin Adair and the rest of the Texas Express crew that laid the foundation for most of the
rules we use today.
Respectfully,
Mike Janis
Owner/Director/Promoter of
The Viking Cue 9-Ball Tour
and Promoter of the new "Super Tour"
Both of which use World Standardized Rules.
L
L.S. Dennis
Guest
Mike,
Thanks for the reply and your input on this. I too realize the need for ONE set of rules once and for all. All these different rules and variations of the different of rules is absurd! To the best of my knowledge golf, tennis, bowling all have one set of rules that everyone uses when they play.
I know I said earlier that I would like to see that one set of rules be 'Grady's Rules" if you remember I also said that I knew it would just be wishful thinking on my part. Although I still believe that they are the very best set of rules for this game, I also know that lots of lower level players wouldn't feel that had any kind of a chance regardless how games spot they got on the wire they recieved. So let's get on with just one set of rules that everyone can agree upon and begin to move this great sport of ours forward.
Regards,
L.S. Dennis
Thanks for the reply and your input on this. I too realize the need for ONE set of rules once and for all. All these different rules and variations of the different of rules is absurd! To the best of my knowledge golf, tennis, bowling all have one set of rules that everyone uses when they play.
I know I said earlier that I would like to see that one set of rules be 'Grady's Rules" if you remember I also said that I knew it would just be wishful thinking on my part. Although I still believe that they are the very best set of rules for this game, I also know that lots of lower level players wouldn't feel that had any kind of a chance regardless how games spot they got on the wire they recieved. So let's get on with just one set of rules that everyone can agree upon and begin to move this great sport of ours forward.
Regards,
L.S. Dennis
T
texasexpress
Guest
response to Mike Janis
Mike ...
You just posted a "solicitation call" for people who read rec.sport.billiard to go to AZ Billiards and vote for the rules they prefer .. and obviously mentioned that your tour uses BCA World Standard .. trying to corrupt the poll are you ???
I agree that it is a very idealistic "hope" that everyone use the same set of rules worldwide .. but alas .. this is pool .. and to get anything or anyone to conform is near impossible due to the incredible lack of leadership ( enjoyed ) within the industry. There are: bar rules, 2 foul rules, apa rules, bca rules, vnea rules, gambling rules, Grady rules and god knows whatever rules that are used ... and on and on. We at T.E. simply do not care what rules are used .. but the BCA ( if they are to be so recognized ) as the so-called leaders of our industry should attempt to make rules that cover each and every situation .. instead of leaving it up to tournament directors interpretation(s). The T.E. rules are not better .. just more descriptive .. and as a result they are used for interpretation purposes more often than not .. granted .. all rules are altered ( as you mention ) to suit the needs of individuals and or tournaments, etc. Other than a very few small things .. the 2 rule sets are nearly the same. Now .. you mention the WPA .. an organization that has only been in existence a few short years and again .. due to the lack of leadership at the BCA .. has as much power as the BCA .. why ?? Didn't the game of 9 ball ( the main format of major tournament play ) begin in the U.S. ? Why would our BCA not be in the commanding role in World Billiards ?? Now .. on to other subjects: The BCA boast a membership that in comparison to the VNEA and particularly the APA pales in numbers. What has the BCA done lately for pool ?
No Smoking ( that helped when CAMEL reached out to them ); add money to their own event in Vegas ( and not to other promoter's events .. ( ask Grady, Miz, Jay Helfert, CJ and T.E. how many times they solicited the BCA for help and were turned away ). There are now dozens of tours in the country and each has their own "right" idea .. to help organize players, further competition and make a buck at the same time .. go for it !!! But if all of the promoter's within the sport were to organize for one reason only - to join the BCA as a voting entity and attempt to force the BCA to solicit within and outside the industry for "real" sponsorship .. then the industry would grow by leaps and bounds .. The BCA is an inept organization whose board decides what is best for billiards ( the board ) .. hum .. what about a trade organization as stated in their mission statement .. any group purchasing going on to help members? any TV contracts signed to help members ? NO .. because they spend time and absolute wasted effort and money chasing the Olympic dream and lying about how many people play pool .. last I read we were up to 48 million in the U.S. .. wow .. that's an average of a million per state .. man there must be a lot of poolrooms in Rhode Island I don't know about !!!! Think of it ... ( that's 1000 poolrooms per state with 1000 players in each .. get real !!! ). I'm sure glad the BCA discontinued their BCA All-American Tour .. we got so many calls during that period from the local tournament directors on how to interpret the rules .. in other words: their own tour played by T.E. rules for the most part !! Mike .. why are you so hot to have everyone use BCA rules ? Are they paying you ?? Are you getting some insignificant sponsorship from them ( rule books, etc. ) .. I can't imagine that you are doing this so as to be a part of the help the BCA thing ..
( getting idealistic are you ?? ) and attempting to solicit others to do the same ?? I appreciate your kind closing and words for me, and others at T.E., i.e., Robin Adair, Randy Goettlicher and all the tournament directors who worked with us for mnay years ... but take this with you: If you really want to help further the cause .. gather as many of the promoters together that will listen and go after Corporate America for funding .. think how many memberships, green and/or registration fees/promotional fees/vendor fees/hotel-motel and casino kickbacks/advertising and TV excesses ( $$ ) you and the other promoter's will gain .. if accomplished ... and the number of players per event ( with BIG added money ) will SOAR !!! GOOD LUCK !!!
John McChesney - Texas Express
Mike ...
You just posted a "solicitation call" for people who read rec.sport.billiard to go to AZ Billiards and vote for the rules they prefer .. and obviously mentioned that your tour uses BCA World Standard .. trying to corrupt the poll are you ???
I agree that it is a very idealistic "hope" that everyone use the same set of rules worldwide .. but alas .. this is pool .. and to get anything or anyone to conform is near impossible due to the incredible lack of leadership ( enjoyed ) within the industry. There are: bar rules, 2 foul rules, apa rules, bca rules, vnea rules, gambling rules, Grady rules and god knows whatever rules that are used ... and on and on. We at T.E. simply do not care what rules are used .. but the BCA ( if they are to be so recognized ) as the so-called leaders of our industry should attempt to make rules that cover each and every situation .. instead of leaving it up to tournament directors interpretation(s). The T.E. rules are not better .. just more descriptive .. and as a result they are used for interpretation purposes more often than not .. granted .. all rules are altered ( as you mention ) to suit the needs of individuals and or tournaments, etc. Other than a very few small things .. the 2 rule sets are nearly the same. Now .. you mention the WPA .. an organization that has only been in existence a few short years and again .. due to the lack of leadership at the BCA .. has as much power as the BCA .. why ?? Didn't the game of 9 ball ( the main format of major tournament play ) begin in the U.S. ? Why would our BCA not be in the commanding role in World Billiards ?? Now .. on to other subjects: The BCA boast a membership that in comparison to the VNEA and particularly the APA pales in numbers. What has the BCA done lately for pool ?
No Smoking ( that helped when CAMEL reached out to them ); add money to their own event in Vegas ( and not to other promoter's events .. ( ask Grady, Miz, Jay Helfert, CJ and T.E. how many times they solicited the BCA for help and were turned away ). There are now dozens of tours in the country and each has their own "right" idea .. to help organize players, further competition and make a buck at the same time .. go for it !!! But if all of the promoter's within the sport were to organize for one reason only - to join the BCA as a voting entity and attempt to force the BCA to solicit within and outside the industry for "real" sponsorship .. then the industry would grow by leaps and bounds .. The BCA is an inept organization whose board decides what is best for billiards ( the board ) .. hum .. what about a trade organization as stated in their mission statement .. any group purchasing going on to help members? any TV contracts signed to help members ? NO .. because they spend time and absolute wasted effort and money chasing the Olympic dream and lying about how many people play pool .. last I read we were up to 48 million in the U.S. .. wow .. that's an average of a million per state .. man there must be a lot of poolrooms in Rhode Island I don't know about !!!! Think of it ... ( that's 1000 poolrooms per state with 1000 players in each .. get real !!! ). I'm sure glad the BCA discontinued their BCA All-American Tour .. we got so many calls during that period from the local tournament directors on how to interpret the rules .. in other words: their own tour played by T.E. rules for the most part !! Mike .. why are you so hot to have everyone use BCA rules ? Are they paying you ?? Are you getting some insignificant sponsorship from them ( rule books, etc. ) .. I can't imagine that you are doing this so as to be a part of the help the BCA thing ..
( getting idealistic are you ?? ) and attempting to solicit others to do the same ?? I appreciate your kind closing and words for me, and others at T.E., i.e., Robin Adair, Randy Goettlicher and all the tournament directors who worked with us for mnay years ... but take this with you: If you really want to help further the cause .. gather as many of the promoters together that will listen and go after Corporate America for funding .. think how many memberships, green and/or registration fees/promotional fees/vendor fees/hotel-motel and casino kickbacks/advertising and TV excesses ( $$ ) you and the other promoter's will gain .. if accomplished ... and the number of players per event ( with BIG added money ) will SOAR !!! GOOD LUCK !!!
John McChesney - Texas Express
A
AndyG
Guest
Another rules question for John & Mike
Hi John & Mike, (long time, John)
Since you're both here, I have a question that I've been unable to get a satisfactory answer for. (John, I talked to Robin about this a few months ago.)
What's the legality ruling on the shot where you lay your cue on the table with the tip just under the edge of the cue ball, and raise the tip end of the cue sharply to hit the cue ball. Is this upward motion considered a stroke?
I'm doing a semi-large tourn. in Oct., and am curious about how to rule on this shot. My gut tells me it shouldn't be legal, but I've heard arguments pro and con.
Both your opinions will be greatly appreciated.
AndyG
Hi John & Mike, (long time, John)
Since you're both here, I have a question that I've been unable to get a satisfactory answer for. (John, I talked to Robin about this a few months ago.)
What's the legality ruling on the shot where you lay your cue on the table with the tip just under the edge of the cue ball, and raise the tip end of the cue sharply to hit the cue ball. Is this upward motion considered a stroke?
I'm doing a semi-large tourn. in Oct., and am curious about how to rule on this shot. My gut tells me it shouldn't be legal, but I've heard arguments pro and con.
Both your opinions will be greatly appreciated.
AndyG
AndyG.
I believe it was Bob Jewett that mentioned that the tip under the cue ball was not considered a legal stroke. There has to be a forward motion, raising the cue tip from the action of the hand on the shaft is NOT a stroke.
This is an old quesiton that has been discussed on RSB. You might want to go to Google and search on RSB archives.
I believe it was Bob Jewett that mentioned that the tip under the cue ball was not considered a legal stroke. There has to be a forward motion, raising the cue tip from the action of the hand on the shaft is NOT a stroke.
This is an old quesiton that has been discussed on RSB. You might want to go to Google and search on RSB archives.
T
texasexpress
Guest
Response to Andy G.
Hi Andy ..
Shot is a foul .. as it does not conform to the following:
"comensurate with a normally stroked shot"
and:
Cuetip is being "dragged" across the face of the cueball .. rather than the cuetip hitting the cueball in a forward thrusting position which conforms to the normal "bridge and stance" position.
Take care ..
John McChesney
Hi Andy ..
Shot is a foul .. as it does not conform to the following:
"comensurate with a normally stroked shot"
and:
Cuetip is being "dragged" across the face of the cueball .. rather than the cuetip hitting the cueball in a forward thrusting position which conforms to the normal "bridge and stance" position.
Take care ..
John McChesney
T
texasexpress
Guest
response to Andy G.
Hi Andy ..
Shot is a foul .. as it does not conform to the following:
"comensurate with a normally stroked shot"
and:
Cuetip is being "dragged" across the face of the cueball .. rather than the cuetip hitting the cueball in a forward thrusting position which conforms to the normal "bridge and stance" position.
Take care ..
John McChesney
Hi Andy ..
Shot is a foul .. as it does not conform to the following:
"comensurate with a normally stroked shot"
and:
Cuetip is being "dragged" across the face of the cueball .. rather than the cuetip hitting the cueball in a forward thrusting position which conforms to the normal "bridge and stance" position.
Take care ..
John McChesney
A
AndyG
Guest
Tom,
Thanks for the info. I believe I remember some of the discussion on RSB. I too believe that it is not a legal shot. However, a couple of months ago, I called Robin Adair for the TE opinion since those are the rules I use in my events. He was going to check with Randy and John for the definitive answer.
This came up in a tournament I did a few years ago in Alabama. At the time, I hadn't formed an opinion, and asked a few of the more experienced players in the tournament, including Johnny Archer. His opinion was that it would be legal under the existing pro rules at that time.
AndyG
Thanks for the info. I believe I remember some of the discussion on RSB. I too believe that it is not a legal shot. However, a couple of months ago, I called Robin Adair for the TE opinion since those are the rules I use in my events. He was going to check with Randy and John for the definitive answer.
This came up in a tournament I did a few years ago in Alabama. At the time, I hadn't formed an opinion, and asked a few of the more experienced players in the tournament, including Johnny Archer. His opinion was that it would be legal under the existing pro rules at that time.
AndyG
Someone showed me that shot about two, three years ago, and I actually saw Karen Corr use the shot in a televised match about that time. They said it was a legal shot. I believe that Allen Hopkins was one of the commentators, or maybe Dawn. I can't remember. But I haven't seen that shot, or heard about it since. The OB was just off the side rail and the CB was right in front of it. Jake
response John McChesney's response 
John, 1st let me say that as you mentioned the two sets of rules in question (TE/BCA-WPA) are just as you stated, ""the two rule sets are nearly the same". My only concern for all directors to conform to 1 set of rules (World Standardized) is for the betterment of the game and the way our sport is percieved from outside our industry. And NO the BCA is not a sponsor of the Viking Tour in any way. They ( the BCA) do not support us with any type of sponsorship or funding. I wish they would!
The 1 set of rules for everyone can only better our sport. The World Standardized Rules are used today in most every major tournament outside of the US and the some of the best tours here in the US. They are supported by a commitee that wants to improve upon these rules but not change them. It's better stated in the letter on the BCA rulers page, here's a 2 paragraph quote from the letter about that.
"In order to promote the standardized rules throughout the various countries and languages, a moratorium on future rules changes is necessary. With the consistency in rules now stabilized in the three most prevalent "competition" games in the sport, the BCA in cooperation with the mandates of the World Pool-Billiard Association has agreed on a moratorium on changes to the rules for a period of 5 years - through the end of 2005.
The WPA Board and the annually held WPA General Assembly will consider amendments to the rules, but only in proposals strengthening the textual interpretation of a rule so it is better understood - not a change in the spirit of the rule itself."
John, thanks again for setting the foundation these rules are based upon. However the Texas Express group lacks the necessary strength to make there rules used on a world-wide front. If TE had the necessary strength and power needed to make there rules used as widely as the World Standardize ones you would probably have my vote for every tournament to use them.
John, 1st let me say that as you mentioned the two sets of rules in question (TE/BCA-WPA) are just as you stated, ""the two rule sets are nearly the same". My only concern for all directors to conform to 1 set of rules (World Standardized) is for the betterment of the game and the way our sport is percieved from outside our industry. And NO the BCA is not a sponsor of the Viking Tour in any way. They ( the BCA) do not support us with any type of sponsorship or funding. I wish they would!
The 1 set of rules for everyone can only better our sport. The World Standardized Rules are used today in most every major tournament outside of the US and the some of the best tours here in the US. They are supported by a commitee that wants to improve upon these rules but not change them. It's better stated in the letter on the BCA rulers page, here's a 2 paragraph quote from the letter about that.
"In order to promote the standardized rules throughout the various countries and languages, a moratorium on future rules changes is necessary. With the consistency in rules now stabilized in the three most prevalent "competition" games in the sport, the BCA in cooperation with the mandates of the World Pool-Billiard Association has agreed on a moratorium on changes to the rules for a period of 5 years - through the end of 2005.
The WPA Board and the annually held WPA General Assembly will consider amendments to the rules, but only in proposals strengthening the textual interpretation of a rule so it is better understood - not a change in the spirit of the rule itself."
John, thanks again for setting the foundation these rules are based upon. However the Texas Express group lacks the necessary strength to make there rules used on a world-wide front. If TE had the necessary strength and power needed to make there rules used as widely as the World Standardize ones you would probably have my vote for every tournament to use them.