Radial joint insall

J

JonW

New member
Hello all,

I’m about to embark on making my first pool cue, and I had a couple of questions I wasn’t able to find a clear answer for. Please bear with me as I know next to nothing about this process so far.

Do I absolutely have to use a tap to install a radial joint pin? Or would it still work to drill a hole ever so slightly smaller than the pin, and thread the pin in and let the epoxy bear the load?

Additionally, is a joint collar necessary? Or can I get by with just fitting the shaft and butt together with no collar?

I’m sure I’ll have plenty more questions as I go, but most of them I’ve been able to find answers in past threads. I’m still gathering the tools I need.

Thank you
 
I don't see how you'll be able to force the pin in and maintain good concentricity. Those pins are seated deep into the cue. The official specs say drill 3" deep and tap 2.75" deep. The barrel is usually .371" or .372" I always measure the pins so I bore the barrel part as snug as possible.
You don't need a joint collar, lot's of sneaky petes don't have them, but phenolic, Juma or whatever joint collar material you choose will certianly strengthen the joint edge compared to regular maple.
 
Kim Bye said:
I don't see how you'll be able to force the pin in and maintain good concentricity. Those pins are seated deep into the cue. The official specs say drill 3" deep and tap 2.75" deep. The barrel is usually .371" or .372" I always measure the pins so I bore the barrel part as snug as possible.
You don't need a joint collar, lot's of sneaky petes don't have them, but phenolic, Juma or whatever joint collar material you choose will certianly strengthen the joint edge compared to regular maple.
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Great point, I guess I’ll order a tap!

I’m planning on installing the pin right after I do my rough cut so I can turn the cue using the “center” of the pin instead of installing the pin closer to the final dimensions since I’m working with less than optimal machinery. I was hoping that would help with keeping things in line, but it’s probably not worth the risk to cut corners on the tap regardless.

Thanks for the reply!
 
JonW said:
Great point, I guess I’ll order a tap!

I’m planning on installing the pin right after I do my rough cut so I can turn the cue using the “center” of the pin instead of installing the pin closer to the final dimensions since I’m working with less than optimal machinery. I was hoping that would help with keeping things in line, but it’s probably not worth the risk to cut corners on the tap regardless.

Thanks for the reply!
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I'm personally not a fan of turning the cue around the joint pin. Sure it gets centered that way, but that does not mean the pin installation is straight down the forearm. You say less then optimal machinery, what are you using and is there no way to improve the accuracy?
 
Kim Bye said:
I'm personally not a fan of turning the cue around the joint pin. Sure it gets centered that way, but that does not mean the pin installation is straight down the forearm. You say less then optimal machinery, what are you using and is there no way to improve the accuracy?
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There may be ways to increase the accuracy that I just don’t know about yet, I picked up a used wood lathe. It’s a delta model 46-700 and I’ve ordered a rolling rest and a jaw chuck to use with it. I also need to pick up a tail stock drill chuck of course.
 
JonW said:
There may be ways to increase the accuracy that I just don’t know about yet, I picked up a used wood lathe. It’s a delta model 46-700 and I’ve ordered a rolling rest and a jaw chuck to use with it. I also need to pick up a tail stock drill chuck of course.
Click to expand...
Wood lathes and cue making isn't a great match, but there's always workarounds. Concentricity would be my main concern. Is your stead rest the type that can be adjusted from three sides, like a metal lathe steady? Do you have a mag base and a indicator? Personally I'm a test dial indicator kinda guy, but a regular indicator will work fine as well.
You will have to make sure your tailstock and cue spinning in the steady is a close 100% concentric as possible.
Since Radial pins have a barrel that's.371" and a 3/8" drill is .375" I'm a bit concerned about the snugness of the fit. Also if you are using cheap HSS drills, they will walk on you. You need to use cobalt or carbide. Have you considered using a straight 3/8-10 pin with no barrel? That way you can use a letter N bit and just tap the hole, no more fuss.
 
Kim Bye said:
Wood lathes and cue making isn't a great match, but there's always workarounds. Concentricity would be my main concern. Is your stead rest the type that can be adjusted from three sides, like a metal lathe steady? Do you have a mag base and a indicator? Personally I'm a test dial indicator kinda guy, but a regular indicator will work fine as well.
You will have to make sure your tailstock and cue spinning in the steady is a close 100% concentric as possible.
Since Radial pins have a barrel that's.371" and a 3/8" drill is .375" I'm a bit concerned about the snugness of the fit. Also if you are using cheap HSS drills, they will walk on you. You need to use cobalt or carbide. Have you considered using a straight 3/8-10 pin with no barrel? That way you can use a letter N bit and just tap the hole, no more fuss.
Click to expand...
Yeah the wood lathe isn't going to be ideal, but I wanted to get my feet wet a bit before I spend a lot more money on a better lathe. The rest I bought has two wheels on the bottom and one on the top, so the bottom two wheels adjust together and the top is separate.

I don't have an indicator, going to have to put that on the shopping list for sure.

I wish that I had gone with 3/8 - 10, but my playing shaft is radial, so I want to match that. (I could have someone redo the shaft joint, but I do like the radial from a playing standpoint. I appreciate the tip on the drill bits, I'll make sure they're good when I pick those up as well.

I'm a bit concerned about not being able to ream the hole more precisely, I was going to look for a bit holder type attachment similar to what you use on a metal lathe.
 
JonW said:
Yeah the wood lathe isn't going to be ideal, but I wanted to get my feet wet a bit before I spend a lot more money on a better lathe. The rest I bought has two wheels on the bottom and one on the top, so the bottom two wheels adjust together and the top is separate.

I don't have an indicator, going to have to put that on the shopping list for sure.

I wish that I had gone with 3/8 - 10, but my playing shaft is radial, so I want to match that. (I could have someone redo the shaft joint, but I do like the radial from a playing standpoint. I appreciate the tip on the drill bits, I'll make sure they're good when I pick those up as well.

I'm a bit concerned about not being able to ream the hole more precisely, I was going to look for a bit holder type attachment similar to what you use on a metal lathe.
Click to expand...
People have built cues on all kinds of lathes, so your problem solving skills and how determined you are can make up for some machinery shortcomings. I would look into getting a wide ball bearing with a big enough through hole that you could use a Delrin sleeve between the bearings and cue and use the outside of the bearing as the surface you tighten up the steady rest on. Then you can use your indicator and adjust until you get perfect concentricity.
 
Kim Bye said:
People have built cues on all kinds of lathes, so your problem solving skills and how determined you are can make up for some machinery shortcomings. I would look into getting a wide ball bearing with a big enough through hole that you could use a Delrin sleeve between the bearings and cue and use the outside of the bearing as the surface you tighten up the steady rest on. Then you can use your indicator and adjust until you get perfect concentricity.
Click to expand...
Just making sure I'm following, i would tighten the wheels of the rest to the outside of the bearing? Or do you mean I should get a rest that doesn't have wheels on it, just to hold the bearing?
 
JonW said:
Just making sure I'm following, i would tighten the wheels of the rest to the outside of the bearing? Or do you mean I should get a rest that doesn't have wheels on it, just to hold the bearing?
Click to expand...
I'll take a picture when I'm in the shop, that will explain everything 🙂
 
Pin goes in last. If you install it with the wood way oversized, it's off-center the instant the wood moves at all.
Radial has a locator barrel, basically the same OD as the threads. Some beginners like drilling a hole and just letting the glue hold the pin, but it's generally not a good practice.
Main parts of the procedure entails boring 5/16", boring for the locator, tap for the threads, install. If any part of the process is not dead true to the center line of the cue, you'll have problems. The threads at the back of the pin are undersized, so there is a TINY bit of wiggle room there, but very little. And if your hole for the locator is off at all, forget about it.
Radial pin threads don't have slop like your typical 5/16ths metal joints, so if your pin isn't straight, your cue will never roll true when the shaft goes on.
 
Sheldon said:
Pin goes in last. If you install it with the wood way oversized, it's off-center the instant the wood moves at all.
Radial has a locator barrel, basically the same OD as the threads. Some beginners like drilling a hole and just letting the glue hold the pin, but it's generally not a good practice.
Main parts of the procedure entails boring 5/16", boring for the locator, tap for the threads, install. If any part of the process is not dead true to the center line of the cue, you'll have problems. The threads at the back of the pin are undersized, so there is a TINY bit of wiggle room there, but very little. And if your hole for the locator is off at all, forget about it.
Radial pin threads don't have slop like your typical 5/16ths metal joints, so if your pin isn't straight, your cue will never roll true when the shaft goes on.
Click to expand...
When you say locator barrel, I assume that’s the flat cylindrical section between the two sets of threads?

Additionally, if I were to install the pin last, with an indicator and rest would it be possible to maintain true concentricity for the install on a wood lathe? I will have a chuck holding the opposite side, I’d just hate to do the pin last and ruin the whole thing…
 
Wood lathe isn't going to work too well. The joint requires precision. There might be some way to do it using a steady rest, but it's not going to be fun.
You might consider a pin that's way more forgiving.
 
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