scoring defensive shots in apa

[lorider]

more than once on here i have stated that accurate scorekeeping helps cut out sandbagging and helps determine a players true skill level.

i want to share a conversation i had with another captain a while back and want to ask you guys your opinion. might be opening a can of worms here but what the hell, it cant be no worse than some threads thats been on here lately.

i thought i was a stickler for making sure all safties were marked but this guy takes it to a whole new level.

he brought up the following scenario.

a player has 2 balls left on the table plus the 8. one ball is hanging in a pocket and he has a clear shot at it. the hanger is also blocking one of his opponents balls. the other ball is near the side rail being locked up by one of his opponents balls.
the player elects to kick at the blocked ball hoping it may go across table into the side pocket. he makes a good hit but fails to pocket the ball.

this captain said he would mark a defensive shot. i said why would you do that, he was obviously making an offensive shot regardless whether it fell or not. he may have thought if he pocketed the hanger he would not have a clear shot on his last ball and elected to break the other ball out knowing he could make the hanger last.

his reply; the player passed up a makeable ball choosing to leave it there blocking his opponents ball, that is defense. he also said it was obvious the kick shot would not go, the player opted to break that ball out believing he would have another turn at the table since one of his opponents ball was blocked.

i said an obvious defence is hiding the cueball preventing your opponent from having a clear shot, anything else is subjective without knowing the players true intentions.

i can somewhat understand his logic but in the end we agreed to disagree.

what do you guys think ?

 

[PC_John]

I agree with the captain, it was a defensive shot.

 

[ActionGene]

I would also mark that as a defensive shot.

 

[scratchs]

subjective...love it,when that words thrown out there
like that..

Any ref would pin in a red mark in the D section..

The only way I wouldn't mark it up is..if while trying to
make/slop the ball cross sides,He/She also tried to take
the cue ball a couple rails back to the corner, trying to
make/slop it too..Yes the cross side shot is the smart
play,yet it is also a defensive play.

 

[Jeff M]

Depends on the skill level of who shot it. Some higher skilled players I mark for one, a lower I don't. Depends how good I know they actually are. Many captains do not even know how to spot many safeties, or just refuse to mark any down. I have let some know about it, but it never helps. The honest players, I help them identify what is or isn't a safety. But my league rep doesn't even know a lot of the rules. I actually sat down and read the rule book. It does not take that long.

 

[ChrisBanks]

In such a wild league like the APA, in which the rules are obviously just set up for fun, why not just go to have fun?

Why care who wins? The rules imply that it doesn't matter who the better player is, we're just here to shoot.

 

[Jeff M]

In such a wild league like the APA, in which the rules are obviously just set up for fun, why not just go to have fun?

Why care who wins? The rules imply that it doesn't matter who the better player is, we're just here to shoot.

An that attitude is why so many refuse to bother with proper scoring, or they're just too lazy.

 

[ChrisBanks]

An that attitude is why so many refuse to bother with proper scoring, or they're just too lazy.

I myself, would never be bothered to track "defensive" shots. What of it? Why, in the lowest of leagues, must we keep track of specific types of shots? If we are intending to become professionals, we aren't using the APA as a springboard. It's just for fun!

I'm actually supposed to be joining an APA league soon. I've heard all about it. But I can't believe that it's taken seriously!

 

[rmw]

The APA rules state: "A Defensive Shot is a shot where the shooter deliberately misses so as to pass his turn at the table to his opponent. Simply stated, it is a shot where there is no intent on the part of the shooter to legally pocket a ball of his category. Intent is the determining factor."

The key phrase here is "Intent is the determining factor."

Passing up an easy shot in favor of a more difficult shot does not automatically constitute a defensive shot. Attempting an impossible shot in those circumstances would make it a defensive shot if the shooter knew the shot was not possible. The skill level of the shooter must be considered when determining intent – do they possess the requisite knowledge to tell the difference between a low percentage shot and a zero percent shot?

 

[ChrisBanks]

The APA rules state: "A Defensive Shot is a shot where the shooter deliberately misses so as to pass his turn at the table to his opponent. Simply stated, it is a shot where there is no intent on the part of the shooter to legally pocket a ball of his category. Intent is the determining factor."

The key phrase here is "Intent is the determining factor."

Passing up an easy shot in favor of a more difficult shot does not automatically constitute a defensive shot. Attempting an impossible shot in those circumstances would make it a defensive shot if the shooter knew the shot was not possible. The skill level of the shooter must be considered when determining intent – do they possess the requisite knowledge to tell the difference between a low percentage shot and a zero percent shot?

What do you rule on a two way shot?

Or, what do you rule on a difficult shot where I am intentionally trying to over/undercut the ball so if I miss I am safe?

 

[ChrisBanks]

In this case I am actually trying to pocket the ball, but I am also aiming to one side of the pocket or the other, so perhaps I am aiming such that I know I will pocket the ball less often, but with a guarantee not to sell out.

What does the APA say about this?

 

[quadrary]

the key is intent and passing up an easy shot is not a determining factor. I may well pass up a hanger for say a cross side or cross corner kick knowing if successfull i am out. if i miss i have freed a tied up ball without selling out. If i shoot to make the kick that is not defense. by the other captains definition if i opt for a bank with an easy shot available that would be defense which is inaccurate. In 8 ball a smart players deals with his problem balls before opening up the table.

 

[ChrisBanks]

the key is intent and passing up an easy shot is not a determining factor. I may well pass up a hanger for say a cross side or cross corner kick knowing if successfull i am out. if i miss i have freed a tied up ball without selling out. If i shoot to make the kick that is not defense. by the other captains definition if i opt for a bank with an easy shot available that would be defense which is inaccurate. In 8 ball a smart players deals with his problem balls before opening up the table.

Surely that is the general rule, but is it universal? What if the balls lay such that developing a problem ball later in the rack will give me the highest probability of running out? Would you still suggest developing the problem balls immediately?

 

[trob]

In such a wild league like the APA, in which the rules are obviously just set up for fun, why not just go to have fun?

Why care who wins? The rules imply that it doesn't matter who the better player is, we're just here to shoot.

Yep... I just got moved up to a nine. The league is a joke but my wife who's a 3 really enjoys it so I play. The rules are definitely set to benefit her more then me.

And yes I would mark a safe.....sounds like a 2 way shoot

 

[quadrary]

generally with any decent sl6 or sl7 if your balls are of the table and youre not shooting you are losing.

 

[OUSooner]

If the intent was to pocket the ball then it is not a safe. This is the main problem with the APA. The majority of the players simply don't understand the game. And really don't understand if an upper level player is playing safe or trying to run out. If the ball would have fell would you still mark a safe? Playing a smart pattern is not a safe.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk

 

[ChrisBanks]

If the intent was to pocket the ball then it is not a safe. This is the main problem with the APA. The majority of the players simply don't understand the game. And really don't understand if an upper level player is playing safe or trying to run out. If the ball would have fell would you still mark a safe? Playing a smart pattern is not a safe.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk

What if the intent is EITHER to pocket the ball, or leave it safe?

 

[OUSooner]

If he made it would he have kept shooting and ran out? A low percentage shot isn't a safe, even if it is a 2 way.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk

 

[justadub]

If the intent was to pocket the ball then it is not a safe. This is the main problem with the APA. The majority of the players simply don't understand the game. And really don't understand if an upper level player is playing safe or trying to run out. If the ball would have fell would you still mark a safe? Playing a smart pattern is not a safe.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9650 using Tapatalk

This is the correct answer. Did the shooter try to make a ball, yes. The rule doesn't state "did the shooter try to make the easiest ball"....

 

[justadub]

I myself, would never be bothered to track "defensive" shots. What of it? Why, in the lowest of leagues, must we keep track of specific types of shots? If we are intending to become professionals, we aren't using the APA as a springboard. It's just for fun!

I'm actually supposed to be joining an APA league soon. I've heard all about it. But I can't believe that it's taken seriously!

Just because this is "the lowest" of leagues to you (and many others) doesn't mean that the majority of the over 200k people who play every week have to feel inferior.

Yes, I want to have fun, and for all my players to have fun, and that is the point. But that doesn't preclude us from taking it seriously enough to try, and to try to learn and improve. It's a big part of my week, and I think that's the case for many others.

And as many have pointed out before, as superior as you think that you are, there are a whole bunch of APA players that would gladly play you, and you would need to take it seriously.

I expect that most of us that play APA don't have any illusions about how "good" we are, in the larger world of pool. That doesnt mean that we can't take what do "seriously", seriously enough while still enjoying our evening.

Enjoy your ha-ha's, you aren't the first to come on here and crap on the APA, and you won't be the last. It's not new, and its tiresome.