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shaft weights?
- Thread starter duke@neo.rr.com
- Start date
This has been argued before, but all things being equal, the more dense and heavy the shaft the better in my opionion. You can't go strickly by weight alone however, since piloted 5/16-14 thread cues usually have a metal insert which can alter the weight up a little. Every pro I've talked to wants the "heavier shaft". I've had shafts before that play fine, but "dent" easily. I think that that has to do with perhaps with quality of maple. Others will argue that the "dark" maple shafts are better than the "pure white" maple shafts, and vica versa.
What is probably more important is the taper and overall "balance" of the cue. The best shafts that I've ever had were made by Runde and SW. Both are very "hard" hitting and surprisingly dent resistant. Conversely, I've had shafts that seem to "ding", as if my magic. Go figure....
Whatever you do, don't mention 2.5 oz. shafts, or classiccues might have a hemorrhage. : )
Regards,
Doug
p.s. A quality shaft should have a fairly high "ring count", on the order of 10 growth rings per inch or better. This is not always indicative of a "good" shaft, but is a starting point. Also straight grained is important vs. grain that wonders off.
What is probably more important is the taper and overall "balance" of the cue. The best shafts that I've ever had were made by Runde and SW. Both are very "hard" hitting and surprisingly dent resistant. Conversely, I've had shafts that seem to "ding", as if my magic. Go figure....
Whatever you do, don't mention 2.5 oz. shafts, or classiccues might have a hemorrhage. : )
Regards,
Doug
p.s. A quality shaft should have a fairly high "ring count", on the order of 10 growth rings per inch or better. This is not always indicative of a "good" shaft, but is a starting point. Also straight grained is important vs. grain that wonders off.
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I think that most of the concern over how much shaft weighs are based on what people remember are good hitting cue's. Older cue's had heavier shafts because the wood often was from trees that were older. The shaft wood was darker, often more grain lines, and may or may not of played better. 4 oz shafts are often thought of as better than a 3.5 oz shaft, though in reality wouldn't it make more difference how a paticular cue is balanced with the shaft it has. The type ferrule, the tip, the joint perhaps, balance point, type of woods used in the butt, how it was constructed all are going to matter more than how much a shaft weighs in my humble opinion. And I honestly think that what people remember as good hitting cue's depended on where they lived, what their first cue or second cue was, and what they regret selling. Not on how much a shaft weighed. Good maple is good maple, and its not all made the same of course, but a quality cuemaker is going to select the best materials available at this time.
Of course as I sit here thinking about it I don't have one shaft in my case that isn't 4+oz *lol* The only reason I like to know weights is it can give a bit of idea of the balance point, but that can be misleading if the butt is heavy, type of joint is light, woods used..etc etc etc.
Of course as I sit here thinking about it I don't have one shaft in my case that isn't 4+oz *lol* The only reason I like to know weights is it can give a bit of idea of the balance point, but that can be misleading if the butt is heavy, type of joint is light, woods used..etc etc etc.
uh,ok
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duke@neo.rr.com said:
It does if you want to sell a cue to them.
A Zen koan, for sure: a question whose answer is inaccessible to rational understanding, but which may be understood intuitively.
What do the two shafts weigh?
What is this "new heavy wood" of which you speak? As others have mentioned, old wood is generally denser than wood grown recently. Lumber trees today are grown on farms, using hybrids and techniques that yield rapid growth for shorter time to market, lower costs, and greater profits. Old trees grew naturally, often with less water and sunlight than is optimal, leading to slower growth and denser wood.
Modern maple often has only 8-12 growth rings per inch, while old-growth maple has as many as 80. I wouldn't even consider maple to be "old-growth" unless it showed more than 50 growth rings per inch. Some cuemakers pick through 100 billets of modern maple to find a handful with 30 rings.
Old-growth timber is relatively rare and expensive. You will find cuemakers offering old-growth shafts at 50% more than their regular woods. Often it is "submerged" old-growth wood which has sat on the bottom of a lake for many decades. (Stradivarius soaked his wood in wine for several years to make his exquisite-sounding violins.) I owned a Mike Capone cue with submerged old-growth shafts, and nothing I've used in 43 years hit as sweetly as they did.
There are straight-grained, hard woods other than maple which have high growth-ring counts and density. Yew, the wood of English longbows and Nordic spear handles, runs around 80 growth rings per inch. Yew grows slowly in cold northen climates.
The density and hardness of wood can be enhanced by impregnating it with a plexiglass-like resin under vacuum. Dymondwood(r) is a trademark for one such type of processed wood. Makers of knife handles, fancy fishing rod seats, gunstocks, and yes, cues often buy Dymondwood(r) or their own impregnation equipment.
heavy means denser
the heavier the shaft the denser and closer the grain lines are. this is a good indicator of the stiffness of the the shaft's "spine" and is a pretty good indicator of how it will play. but the bottom line is you have to hit with it to see how you like it. i like a pretty stiff hit and use a radially laminated shaft 'not predator' i have made from atlas blanks. good solid stiff hit
the heavier the shaft the denser and closer the grain lines are. this is a good indicator of the stiffness of the the shaft's "spine" and is a pretty good indicator of how it will play. but the bottom line is you have to hit with it to see how you like it. i like a pretty stiff hit and use a radially laminated shaft 'not predator' i have made from atlas blanks. good solid stiff hit
Wow, some great posts in this tread! Very good stuff, guys.
Another factor, I don't recall mentioned, is the shaft taper. I think this is at least, if not more significant, than shaft density in determining stiffness. The closer a shaft is to a parabolic (conical) taper, the stiffer it will play. Conversely, an extended "pro taper" will play whippier, all things being equal. Why? It's harder to bend a cone than a cylinder using compressive force. Less bending means more direct feel is transmitted; lateral bending diffuses the force.
Another factor, I don't recall mentioned, is the shaft taper. I think this is at least, if not more significant, than shaft density in determining stiffness. The closer a shaft is to a parabolic (conical) taper, the stiffer it will play. Conversely, an extended "pro taper" will play whippier, all things being equal. Why? It's harder to bend a cone than a cylinder using compressive force. Less bending means more direct feel is transmitted; lateral bending diffuses the force.
Related to Jeffs' question about shaft weights.... Anyone have a brand of scales they would recommend? Don't like going to the post office to bother them for their rough estimate.
Have seen "My Weigh" brand electronic scales on ebay for about $30 on up. Any other accurate scale suggestions for cues?
Thx guys.
Have seen "My Weigh" brand electronic scales on ebay for about $30 on up. Any other accurate scale suggestions for cues?
Thx guys.
Jigger said:
Acculab makes great electronic scales. The prices reflect the degree of accuracy you're looking for. I bought one to measure chemicals for photography formulas that reads accurately to .00g for $110.
i went to staples in my area and paid 30 bucks for whatever brand postal scale.... works pretty damn good... now i weigh EVERYTHING <LOL>tedkaufman said:
as far as shaft weight, there are alot of variables- mostly start with the joint and the insert if any... i play with 3/8-10 and SW 3/8-11 with regular wood to wood and the usual collar.... so all my shafts can be sorta compared... growth rings and straight grain make a good dense shaft. I shoot for the 4oz mark usually...That's what i look for. Then a good cuemaker can work their magic from there.... certain tapers make the shaft whippier or stiffer as mentioned.... i ordered a custom coker i'm waiting on and have some of his 'pro-taper' shafts that weigh close to 3.9 and like the feel. He also does a conical taper by request <that used to be what he used all the time> so i can see how they play i'm having him do that.... he is also using wood found in a 60yr old bowling alley.... old growth stuff... a rare find. should be a killer shaft!
My favorite shaft is a SW with old micarta ferrule and moori... i use it on all my SW cues cause it is just the bomb. It's 4.1oz and dark wood 30-40 rings+....luck of the draw.... the other shaft that came with the cue is no where near the quality of this one...
Tips and Ferrules also make a huge difference... so when i compare shafts weights and 'feel' i always use moori and use the same type of ferrule....
one last thing is i compare 13mm or close to it... obviously an 11mm shaft should be lighter...
weight of the shaft also moves the balance point of your cue a little fore or back... can make a difference in your stroke and how you stroke... my favorite playing balance is a 15.3-15.5 butt and a 3.9-4.0 shaft...
i've pretty much learned from trial and error and playing with about 40-50 cues in the past 18 months...found my favorite shafts for now in the joints i like to play... a maker near me has some old growth sunken wood that i am eventually going to get a shaft made <when i swallow up the cost>... with moori and micarta it'll be around 325 bucks! Should hit like a sledgehammer though!
good luck on the search for the 'magic wand' <VBG>
my .02
Triple beam Ohaus will work great. If you want to get rediculous get an electronic scale accurate to .00001 gram.Jigger said:
http://www.ohaus.com/
If you do less than a triple beam you're likely to get on that's not calibrated and can't be calibrated. You need to spend some cash if you really want to know what something weighs otherwise all you'll know is one shaft is heavier than another.
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Most shafts come from wood that's not had enough time to season. Good seasoning takes years. Some of the best shafts I've had came off of 20 year+ old house cues. Unseasoned wood has drastically different amounts of moisture in them making them impossible to cut and have two shafts with the same weight and impossible for them to play the same.Dhakala said:
Changing the taper will definately stiffen the shaft and harden the hit.
Currently I'm shooting with a Dieckman. We decided to cut the shafts with his modified conical taper. The 3 shafts I ordered, he had saved for another customer and National 3C contender who requires the lightest shafts available. These are feather light and hit fantastic.
The other key when one shaft plays different than another is whether their weights are matched. I've had cues where the shafts are over 7 grams different from each other. Matched shafts should be within 3 gram or less of each other.
Having the same taper but one shaft 1/4 ounce different in weight will play different, as will 2 shafts of the same weight with different tapers.
If you want a harder or stiffer hit change the taper or change the joint. IMO changing the taper will be easier to get used to than the joint.
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