shaft wood

Canadian cue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
They touched on this topic in another thread but I think it merits a new one. All cuemakers claim their shaft wood has been aged for years with small cuts over time. Some dipping and some not, we all know the drill. So when I got into this I followed suit not really knowing all the reasons why, but at the same time I did some tests of my own. When I started a batch of wood I picked a nice straight grain piece and built a shaft start to finish. I was surprised at the fact that it did not warp over time. After contemplating this for a while I realized that if a piece of wood has nice straight grain, stress relieving and aging is not as big an issue. The more prevalent factors in shaft warpage is climate change and grain run off. Do you think I just got lucky or is there some merit to this theory? Now I realize there are some bigger things at stake here, but I'm still hoping for some honest answers.
 
Canadian cue said:
They touched on this topic in another thread but I think it merits a new one. All cuemakers claim their shaft wood has been aged for years with small cuts over time. Some dipping and some not, we all know the drill. So when I got into this I followed suit not really knowing all the reasons why, but at the same time I did some tests of my own. When I started a batch of wood I picked a nice straight grain piece and built a shaft start to finish. I was surprised at the fact that it did not warp over time. After contemplating this for a while I realized that if a piece of wood has nice straight grain, stress relieving and aging is not as big an issue. The more prevalent factors in shaft warpage is climate change and grain run off. Do you think I just got lucky or is there some merit to this theory? Now I realize there are some bigger things at stake here, but I'm still hoping for some honest answers.

You are right, there are bigger things at stake here.
<grin>
 
Canadian Cue
Keeping wood straight in your own shop is the easy part. Usually the same conditions day to day. Having confidence in it when it leaves your shop is one reason for the seasoning and dipping.
 
WilleeCue said:
You are right, there are bigger things at stake here.
<grin>

I think a lot of that is hype by cue makers. I read guys on their web sites say they have wood aging for 6 and 10 years, are they nuts? It may have been laying around that long, but it is not necessary to take 6 years to turn a shaft. I would say if you start with a good piece of wood you should be able to turn a stress relived shaft over a few months taking small correcting turns. I have turned shafts that never really exhibited any run out after only the second turn and were perfect at every turn after that. I still would not rush the process but it shows it can be done faster then most cues makers like to pretend. What is funny is I have shafts that look terrible and are not good for anything but maybe a jump cue that still turn perfect. I see shafts I did years ago that are still pretty much perfect. I can't see it taking more then three months to turn a shaft, am I wrong, have I just been lucky? As a note, all my woods are hanging in a climate controlled room from as soon as I get them.
 
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macguy said:
I think a lot of that is hype by cue makers. QUOTE]

Well ... the proof is in the pudding ... so they say.

There are some old cues around that were made 30 years ago and some are still straight and some are warped. How did the old masters cut thair shafts? Did they take months to do it? How about all the old house cues made by Valley and brunswick that are still straight after 10 or more years. Did they take small passes over long periods of time? A fellow just drove down a few weeks ago and picked up about 35 first and second cut blanks that I rejected for cue shafts because it was obvious that that wood would never relax and stop moving no matter how long I waited. Sure ... stretchig out the time lets the cuemaker better judge and weed out the stressed wood but exactly how much time is really needed seems to be THE question. Some say months between cuts and some say as little as 24 hours.

I dont really know but I do offer a free replacement if any of my cues warp ... ever. I have some cues that are over 4 years old now and still appear to be straight. If I were buying a cue from a well known cuemaker and knowing the true cost involved in a cue shaft I would expect no less from him.
 
Well ... the proof is in the pudding ... so they say.

There are some old cues around that were made 30 years ago and some are still straight and some are warped. How did the old masters cut thair shafts? Did they take months to do it? How about all the old house cues made by Valley and brunswick that are still straight after 10 or more years. Did they take small passes over long periods of time? A fellow just drove down a few weeks ago and picked up about 35 first and second cut blanks that I rejected for cue shafts because it was obvious that that wood would never relax and stop moving no matter how long I waited. Sure ... stretchig out the time lets the cuemaker better judge and weed out the stressed wood but exactly how much time is really needed seems to be THE question. Some say months between cuts and some say as little as 24 hours.

I dont really know but I do offer a free replacement if any of my cues warp ... ever. I have some cues that are over 4 years old now and still appear to be straight. If I were buying a cue from a well known cuemaker and knowing the true cost involved in a cue shaft I would expect no less from him.[/QUOTE]


I would say the final shaft can be no better then the material you start with. You may even find a nice shaft in a house cue or production cue, but only by chance.
 
I know taking time between cuts is important. I would like to think 4 to six weeks between small cuts is enough.
But, if the shafts are stored in a room that's contant at 75 degrees with 50-55% humidity, what chance is there for the shafts to warp?
Wouldn't it make sense to expose the shafts in the real world while they are still oversized? After all, you want the shafts to warp in your shop not outside.
Perhaps, the old masters did not baby their shafts when they were cutting them? They let them warp and slowly cut along the the direction of the "warp"?
 
Joseph Cues said:
I know taking time between cuts is important. I would like to think 4 to six weeks between small cuts is enough.
But, if the shafts are stored in a room that's contant at 75 degrees with 50-55% humidity, what chance is there for the shafts to warp?
Wouldn't it make sense to expose the shafts in the real world while they are still oversized? After all, you want the shafts to warp in your shop not outside.
Perhaps, the old masters did not baby their shafts when they were cutting them? They let them warp and slowly cut along the the direction of the "warp"?

Warpage is not as much due to moisture content and exchange as the grain not being straight in the first place. Actually the cue after it leaves the shop will be in a pretty good environment most of the time. Most people live in air conditioned houses and the pool rooms are also air conditioned. Unless the cue is left out in someone's yard for a few days it spends it's life in good conditions. Before I built the climate controlled room for the wood, I would see a cue or shaft later down the road and it would have shrunk a little, and you could feel the collors and so forth, I hated that, I never see it any more. The environment I store my wood is close to what the cue will be exposed to most of the time. I took an agrometer (sp?) to the pool room one night to see what the humidity in the room was and it was 40% in the room. The room where I keep the wood is 50 % it keeps the mc around 6 to 8 %. It is a much better choice then having wet wood. Of all the things I would recomment to a cue maker, having a good climate controlled room to store your wood is one of the most important. It can even be done as simply as just using plastic sheeting stapled to a framework with a dehumidifier and a door in a corner of the room. Mine is 10 x 10 drywall with a plastic membrane moisture barrier and a sliding glass doors I salvaged from the side of the road. It seals up like a freezer and it is not expensive to keep it controlled.
 
Thanks Mac.
That makes a lot of sense to me.
I forgot there are some states that have really humid conditions.
 
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Canadian cue said:
They touched on this topic in another thread but I think it merits a new one. All cuemakers claim their shaft wood has been aged for years with small cuts over time. Some dipping and some not, we all know the drill. So when I got into this I followed suit not really knowing all the reasons why, but at the same time I did some tests of my own. When I started a batch of wood I picked a nice straight grain piece and built a shaft start to finish. I was surprised at the fact that it did not warp over time. After contemplating this for a while I realized that if a piece of wood has nice straight grain, stress relieving and aging is not as big an issue. The more prevalent factors in shaft warpage is climate change and grain run off. Do you think I just got lucky or is there some merit to this theory? Now I realize there are some bigger things at stake here, but I'm still hoping for some honest answers.

CC, several weeks back I had this shaftwood that had an ugly stain in it. I figured hoping it would dissappear after a few cuts... what the heck I turned it down and tapered it to 13mm! It still is straight. That wood though has been resting for like 8 months before I made that cut.

Had handle wood that's been stored in a controlled room similar to yours, forgot about it and left it in the garage. Still haven't cut out the crook after a few passes. Change in Humidity was the culprit.

No doubt we all know that humidity could do a lot of damage to wood. What your post is suggesting is WOOD STRESS induced by cutting done on wood.
I still have to find the answer for that on my own. Definitely it exist, but what probably we're after is the interval between cuts. Could it be shorter or longer?

I personally don't think ageing wood is the right term, that piece of wood was probly cut from a tree 20+ - 50 years and some older! I call it the resting stage and letting the wood feel relaxed in your environment. :D
 
wood drying...

I know that some people have the luxe of having a climate and humidity controlled room. Others use the dipping in Nelsonite technique.

But I believe that the best way to dry wood is still the way it was done untill the beginning of last century... Air dry it!

The tension (stress) built up in a piece of wood can only go away if you expose the wood to the natural conditions of Mother Nature. Leave the pieces exposed to the cold and humidity of winters, the heat and drought of the summers... The wood will expand, shrink, expand and shrink again for a certain time. After a while (may be a few months, or a few years) the wood doesn't shrink or expand anymore.

It's not the moisture in the wood wich is the cause of warping, but the resin. The resin has to harden out to make that piece of wood stable.
The way it was done in the southern parts of Europe: Italy, Spain, mediterranean part of France, was to cut down the trees in the old moon period wih is only one or two days per moon cycle (the best was the winter old moon).
Apparently, the moon has a big influence on the sap and resin levels in the trees as the gravity of the moon reacts on the earth, and thus the trees.

Then, the logs would be stripped from their bark and thrown into the cold springs. The water of the streaming spring would make the logs sink, and after the sap has been washed out of the logs (takes 8 to 14 months), they would start to flote again.
The logs were then removed from tthe springs and put into big caves so they could air dry.

Two seasons later, that wood was quarter sawn and would never move again.
I've seen houses made out of oak wich was dried that way and were built in the third of fourth century a.d.

They still stand as straight as new build houses...

Maybe that's why old growth wood is the most ideal wood to make shafts with in these times, when the only wood we can get legally is plantation wood. The only point to refuse to use the wood might be the color and sugar as almost every client wants clear snow-white shafts.
But a big contreversy is that they adore the old school cues like the Balabushka's, Szamboti's...etc.
Those cuemakers were not concerned about a little bit of sugar or brown spots in the wood.

It might be a very good idea to reeducate the clients by telling them the truth about shaft wood and telling them that the whitest and clearest shaft is not by definition the best hitting shaft.

Anyway, turning the wood down with a few tenths of inches every so many weeks or months can accelerate the process. And I don't think that maple has to dry for longer than 18 months, if cut and sawn properly (quarter sawn).

Let Mother Nature do the hard work for you and just finish the fine details!

Tom Penrose
 
macguy said:
Warpage is not as much due to moisture content and exchange as the grain not being straight in the first place. Actually the cue after it leaves the shop will be in a pretty good environment most of the time. Most people live in air conditioned houses and the pool rooms are also air conditioned. Unless the cue is left out in someone's yard for a few days it spends it's life in good conditions. Before I built the climate controlled room for the wood, I would see a cue or shaft later down the road and it would have shrunk a little, and you could feel the collors and so forth, I hated that, I never see it any more. The environment I store my wood is close to what the cue will be exposed to most of the time. I took an agrometer (sp?) to the pool room one night to see what the humidity in the room was and it was 40% in the room. The room where I keep the wood is 50 % it keeps the mc around 6 to 8 %. It is a much better choice then having wet wood. Of all the things I would recomment to a cue maker, having a good climate controlled room to store your wood is one of the most important. It can even be done as simply as just using plastic sheeting stapled to a framework with a dehumidifier and a door in a corner of the room. Mine is 10 x 10 drywall with a plastic membrane moisture barrier and a sliding glass doors I salvaged from the side of the road. It seals up like a freezer and it is not expensive to keep it controlled.

As the air-conditioning is very common in the US, it's quite rare to have an air-conditioned indoor area here in Europe. At least here in the Northern Europe it's very rare. IMHO, the cuemakers want to make a cue for every climate type and not just for air-conditioned and steady climates. Even many poolrooms around Europe lack air-conditioning and moisture control, which sometimes makes playing difficult, especially on summer. And cues take a lot of punishment under these circumstances because the difference in climate is quite severe between summer and winter...
 
I combine selection and conditioning processes for my woods. My process start from selection of raw (dimension lumber, logs, burl or rootballs) which is directly done at the source to mapping out cuts for choice pieces to turn down schedule.

I have 2 wood conditioning rooms, the first one has 24 hr circulating blowers that are not directed towards the woods as to not rush the drying of the outside surface of the wood. This room has vents that keep the area same as the outside environmental conditions but without direct exposure to sunlight and rain. The second room is full moisture and temperature barrier sealed to maintain humidity and temperature in accordance to control schedule.

All woods go through different selection, testing and vacuum/pressure assisted stabilization stages of which each stage has its own criteria to meet (visual inspection, tonal quality test, weight and mechanical tests) and processes (timing and cutting sequences) to follow.

All cuemakers have their way of doing this but the above is what works for me.

Edwin Reyes
 
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Good Post Tom!!!

Penrose Cues said:
I know that some people have the luxe of having a climate and humidity controlled room. Others use the dipping in Nelsonite technique.


Sherm:
Most top cuemakers use both in the U.S.



Tom said:
But I believe that the best way to dry wood is still the way it was done untill the beginning of last century... Air dry it!


Sherm:
Yes, this is done first, even with the other techniques in place.



Tom said:
The tension (stress) built up in a piece of wood can only go away if you expose the wood to the natural conditions of Mother Nature. Leave the pieces exposed to the cold and humidity of winters, the heat and drought of the summers... The wood will expand, shrink, expand and shrink again for a certain time. After a while (may be a few months, or a few years) the wood doesn't shrink or expand anymore.


Sherm:
I don't know about this part I believe that wood will continue to move to a certain extent. Strees relief, IMHO, must be done with incremental turning. The fibers in the wood in the wood run lengthwise and each strand can have different tensions. As you peel off the outer layer, by incremental turning, you allow the grain to pull more on one side than the other. If you visualize the wood as strandulated something like a muscle. Some strands are under more tension than others. If the force is greater on one side than the other, movement occurs, like a di-electric strip in a thermostat.



Tom said:
It's not the moisture in the wood wich is the cause of warping, but the resin. The resin has to harden out to make that piece of wood stable.
The way it was done in the southern parts of Europe: Italy, Spain, mediterranean part of France, was to cut down the trees in the old moon period wih is only one or two days per moon cycle (the best was the winter old moon).
Apparently, the moon has a big influence on the sap and resin levels in the trees as the gravity of the moon reacts on the earth, and thus the trees.

Then, the logs would be stripped from their bark and thrown into the cold springs. The water of the streaming spring would make the logs sink, and after the sap has been washed out of the logs (takes 8 to 14 months), they would start to flote again.
The logs were then removed from tthe springs and put into big caves so they could air dry.

Two seasons later, that wood was quarter sawn and would never move again.
I've seen houses made out of oak wich was dried that way and were built in the third of fourth century a.d.

They still stand as straight as new build houses...

Maybe that's why old growth wood is the most ideal wood to make shafts with in these times, when the only wood we can get legally is plantation wood. The only point to refuse to use the wood might be the color and sugar as almost every client wants clear snow-white shafts.
But a big contreversy is that they adore the old school cues like the Balabushka's, Szamboti's...etc.
Those cuemakers were not concerned about a little bit of sugar or brown spots in the wood.

It might be a very good idea to reeducate the clients by telling them the truth about shaft wood and telling them that the whitest and clearest shaft is not by definition the best hitting shaft.



Sherm replied: You have some good points.
I think we have Bob Meucci to thank/blame for this situation! He was the one who started using the softer whiter shaft woods to begin with and convinced the sheep that it was better! He had the most aggressive advertizing campaign in the history of pool, until Predator came along! (That's another story altogether) It's amazing to me how much influence advertizing actually has on the buying public! They are like sheep! It took a decade before some people started realizing that the Meucci's were like Bic lighters! Disposable cues! The first time I met Bob, I stopped by his booth at a BCA trade show in the 80's. David Howard and I were very good friends and I was supposed to meet him to go out and have lunch. David was a player rep of Meucci's and introduced me to Bob. I'd wondered why he used the ferrule material he was using, for quite some time, and could not resist asking him, when I had him face to face. He looked me right in the eye and said "Sherm, I don't want to build cues that last forever! You can't make any money doing that! If they don't wear out, people won't buy new ones!" He may have been speaking half in jest, because a few years later he was claiming his cues had "ZERO DEFLECTION" due to the shaft taper and ferrule he used. He used to get hot at David when he sent shafts to me to have good ferrules installed! lol

Tom Said:
Anyway, turning the wood down with a few tenths of inches every so many weeks or months can accelerate the process. And I don't think that maple has to dry for longer than 18 months, if cut and sawn properly (quarter sawn).


Sherm replied:
I'm sure you mis-spoke here. "A few tenths of an inch"... over 1/4 of an inch in a pass?

A while back there was a thread in one of the forums regarding the importance of shaftwood being quartersawn. I've always bought in to the theory that shaftwood had to be quartersawn and had always used blanks that were purported to have been quartersawn. After reading that thread, I'm not so sure! I don't know an easy way to diagram this for a forum, but if you draw 2 circles with growth rings inside. Quarter one of them and slab the other, then draw a bunch of small circles to represent the dowells. The grain lines in the shafts are identical. I'm beginning to wonder if this wasn't just a woodworking principle, originally associated with furniture building and crafts that used mostly flat lumber, that was applied to cuemaking without reasoning it out. Anyone know what difference it could really make, when the wood is cut into dowells?? From the diagrams I've seen, I can't tell how it would make any difference at all, but I'd love for someone to explain otherwise!


Sherm
 
Penrose Cues said:
I know that some people have the luxe of having a climate and humidity controlled room. Others use the dipping in Nelsonite technique.

But I believe that the best way to dry wood is still the way it was done untill the beginning of last century... Air dry it!

The tension (stress) built up in a piece of wood can only go away if you expose the wood to the natural conditions of Mother Nature. Leave the pieces exposed to the cold and humidity of winters, the heat and drought of the summers... The wood will expand, shrink, expand and shrink again for a certain time. After a while (may be a few months, or a few years) the wood doesn't shrink or expand anymore.

It's not the moisture in the wood wich is the cause of warping, but the resin. The resin has to harden out to make that piece of wood stable.
The way it was done in the southern parts of Europe: Italy, Spain, mediterranean part of France, was to cut down the trees in the old moon period wih is only one or two days per moon cycle (the best was the winter old moon).
Apparently, the moon has a big influence on the sap and resin levels in the trees as the gravity of the moon reacts on the earth, and thus the trees.

Then, the logs would be stripped from their bark and thrown into the cold springs. The water of the streaming spring would make the logs sink, and after the sap has been washed out of the logs (takes 8 to 14 months), they would start to flote again.
The logs were then removed from tthe springs and put into big caves so they could air dry.

Two seasons later, that wood was quarter sawn and would never move again.
I've seen houses made out of oak wich was dried that way and were built in the third of fourth century a.d.

They still stand as straight as new build houses...

Maybe that's why old growth wood is the most ideal wood to make shafts with in these times, when the only wood we can get legally is plantation wood. The only point to refuse to use the wood might be the color and sugar as almost every client wants clear snow-white shafts.
But a big contreversy is that they adore the old school cues like the Balabushka's, Szamboti's...etc.
Those cuemakers were not concerned about a little bit of sugar or brown spots in the wood.

It might be a very good idea to reeducate the clients by telling them the truth about shaft wood and telling them that the whitest and clearest shaft is not by definition the best hitting shaft.

Anyway, turning the wood down with a few tenths of inches every so many weeks or months can accelerate the process. And I don't think that maple has to dry for longer than 18 months, if cut and sawn properly (quarter sawn).

Let Mother Nature do the hard work for you and just finish the fine details!

Tom Penrose

I don't think many of us are in the lumber business and are working with green wood. I buy wood that has already been dried and my room is to maintain the wood in that state. Air dried wood drops only to about 15 or 20 % MC. That is not even considered low enough for the building of furniture for indoor use. I would never use wood that wet to build a cue. This is not a debate there is endless stuff to read on the net about wood and the drying of wood. Everybody has to make up their own minds as to what they think is important from their own experience. My post was not an attempt to make anyone think as I think, I can only do what I think is best from my own experience. I find it interesting there seems to be a perception in some posts that cues built years ago were somehow better and set some kind of bench mark. I would have to disagree, the best cues ever built are being built today.
 
shaftwood

Hey Guys Have not begun my cue making adventure yet.....but hope to soon. I am a semi-pro player in Canada and have always questioned the fact that shaft wood has to be snow white to be superior?????.........i have played with tan coloured maple shafts from 20-30 yrs ago that hit absolutely beutiful...........have acces to 50+yr old ash and maple.....anybody ever work with wood that old??.... if so does it need to be turned slowly as regualar shaftwood.??........Am excited bout the info available here.........Great stuff~~!!
 
Air drying the wood seems to make it a little harder and stiffer. It also makes it a lot darker in color. The modern vacuum kilns produce very white wood, but also stress the wood and destroy the wood fibers slightly. So I prefer to have my wood dried in a dehumidifier kiln which produces wood that is about one shade less white than vacuum kilns, but the wood is harder. Air dried for weeks, then high heat kiln dried twice would produce the hardest wood, but would also be very dark. So the dehumidifier kiln gives the happy medium between what is best and what is prettiest. The market won't support dark wood any longer.
Chris
www.internationalcuemakers.com
www.cuesmith.com
 
The market is funny some times, but I wouldn't mind having some maple that old. I would still run it through the conditions I do now. Just because who knows what will happen when you start turning.
 
cueman said:
Air drying the wood seems to make it a little harder and stiffer. It also makes it a lot darker in color. The modern vacuum kilns produce very white wood, but also stress the wood and destroy the wood fibers slightly. So I prefer to have my wood dried in a dehumidifier kiln which produces wood that is about one shade less white than vacuum kilns, but the wood is harder. Air dried for weeks, then high heat kiln dried twice would produce the hardest wood, but would also be very dark. So the dehumidifier kiln gives the happy medium between what is best and what is prettiest. The market won't support dark wood any longer.
Chris

That is a shame that modern players would choose looks at the expense of performance.
However, MOST players today never come close to pushing the performance level of their cue past its abaility. (I should know ... I am one of them LOL)
I have always liked the that golden glow of the older shafts.
It just looks right.
I have even made shafts from old broken house cues to get that nice golden yelowish look.
I started playing pool and and became aware of nice cues back in the late 60's and early 70's so that is prolly why I prefer them.
If I had started in the 90's then I guess I would think the whiter and clearer the better.
Knowing how trends go, I bet in a few years there will be a swing back to the harder more golden shaded shaft wood.
What do you think?
 
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