I have seen how butterfly points are done, basicly cutting slabs off the forearm and glueing strips of wood back on. I was wondering how straight points are done. Does anyone have a diagram? Is it way harder? Do you have to acurately cut into the wood and inlay the points? I really have no idea and my local cuemaker builds some amazing cues that hit great, but he will only do Butterfly points is it hard for him to do straight points?
Spliced points vs. Butterfly points. Blud, Bandido, Joseph Cues..
- Thread starter fxskater
- Start date
fxskater said:
any cnc or pantograph points are inlays(you can tell by their blunt tips).
spliced points are like triangular pie wedges that are cut into the nose of the cue. there's more tolerance in spliced points than butterflies, probably they're simply harder to do,,,,which is why you'll see glue marks in poorly cut spliced points.
points
I agree with Joseph, I do not like butter fly points. Deep VEE points are stronger than butter fly and or flat bottom points.
True, VEE points are cut at a 90 degree angle and real folded veeners are done the same.
The glueing surface is more with VEE points as either of the others. Some build vee pointed cues with stacking the veeners on one side and then stacking another on the other side. This to me is the easy way out. You have a staggered glue line running up the cues middle.
VEE points as I make are folded at a 90degree, and placed in a jig I develpoed to keep everything as should be. They were tough to start with, but now they are a hanger.
All three are good points, but for over all strenght, VE points is my choice. They are fun to build, and really look like a piece of art work.
rock on
blud
I agree with Joseph, I do not like butter fly points. Deep VEE points are stronger than butter fly and or flat bottom points.
True, VEE points are cut at a 90 degree angle and real folded veeners are done the same.
The glueing surface is more with VEE points as either of the others. Some build vee pointed cues with stacking the veeners on one side and then stacking another on the other side. This to me is the easy way out. You have a staggered glue line running up the cues middle.
VEE points as I make are folded at a 90degree, and placed in a jig I develpoed to keep everything as should be. They were tough to start with, but now they are a hanger.
All three are good points, but for over all strenght, VE points is my choice. They are fun to build, and really look like a piece of art work.
rock on
blud
thanks for the great offer blud. I will try and get him to call you. I have a cue with butterfly points right now and they look great but i really like the look of a VEE point vaneered cue. What i was hoping to have done is 2 small butterfly points with 3 veneers and 2 large VEE points with 3 veneers. Would I be correct in assuming that you would firts do the butterfly points, then turn it before cutting the VEE points? Is there any extra machinery required to do VEE points other than a lathe?
The only v-splice points I consider true to its purpose" is the "full-spliced v" where the points are part of the handle. Half splice v, butterfly and flat bottomed inlayed points are more for aesthetics than structural as more of the structural burden in this area has been relegated to the A-joint.
It is my opinion that the debate over v-splice and flat inlayed points, specially when it refers to structural strength in an A-jointed (forearm and handle joint) is unimportant. in such structural configuration, the A-jointing system in relation to materials and point design is what is important.
I'm sure that your cuemaker can do straight-edged/aligned half v-spliced or cnc points once he discovers and masters the use of jigs/equipment plus learns to maintain the important reference points. Now doing straight edged/aligned true hand inlay is another story.
A mill with the appropriate cutter, a rotary table and tailstock plus the necessary veneer jointing/aligning jigs.
It is my opinion that the debate over v-splice and flat inlayed points, specially when it refers to structural strength in an A-jointed (forearm and handle joint) is unimportant. in such structural configuration, the A-jointing system in relation to materials and point design is what is important.
I'm sure that your cuemaker can do straight-edged/aligned half v-spliced or cnc points once he discovers and masters the use of jigs/equipment plus learns to maintain the important reference points. Now doing straight edged/aligned true hand inlay is another story.
A mill with the appropriate cutter, a rotary table and tailstock plus the necessary veneer jointing/aligning jigs.
Last edited:
Ed, don't you consider butterfly points weaker though b/c when the cue hits a ball, the forearm would be in essence trying to SPLIT the butterfly splice points?bandido said:
If a V-pointed cue is cored at the bottom of the forearm, the points do not really weaken the cue, does it?
Thanks.
Blud, forgive my ignorance.blud said:
You mean you do not glue your veneers to the sides of the V point woods one side at a time?
This might need some pics here so the people here can tell how much importance you place in the integrity of your veneered points.
Joseph Cues said:
In fairness to the cm's who use butterfly splice in conjunction with an A-joint, I didn't comment on its structural strength compared to the v-splice and the flat inlayed. Plus if I did, I feel that it would be but proper to back up my opinion with illustrations. You know the answer.
Truthfully, I do find that an A-jointed v-splice that's cored in the forearm configuration has a higher chance of failure, than a flat bottomed point that's cored in the forearm, should the glued faces be sub-optimal. This is assuming that the glue used is stronger than the wood so that the glue is not considered a factor and just the structural design and workmanship are considered. That is why I prefer to have the tenon on the forearm and the recieveing cavity in the larger diameter (heftier because it's larger than the forearm) handle even with my flat bottomed points.
My bad. I thought you considered butterfly points in your last post.bandido said:
That makes sense to me. I don't see how a cored v-pointed cue can be stronger than a forearm with the male wood tenon ( part of the forearm). Even if the forearm has inlayed points up .125" deep.
Thanks Ed. I've seen MT's page before.bandido said:
He does mate his veneers instead of overlapping.
MT's a cool qmaker. He's building a table saw CNC tapering machine.
That's one exciting project. I am jealous of course as it takes me a few cuts on a router to turn rods to cones.
blud said:
No offense but this is not so compared to a flat bottomed point that is inlayed parallel to the taper. In a cue that'll exhibit a 9 inches (228.6 mm.) long by 0.6496 inches (16.5 mm.) wide point, the contact surface of the 90 degree v-splice point is 2679.0525 sq. mm. while the flat bottomed point inlayed at a depth of 0.125 inch (3.175 mm.) is 3338.50615 sq. mm. Both values minus (-) approx.5% for the curvature due to taper and the forearm being round (cause of point flare). The v-splice's lower value is due to its deepest apex eventually terminating (surfacing) at the tip of the point.
Edwin Reyes
points
Joseph, I do glue both side of the veneers at the same time, because when I bevel them at a 90, they are still connected in part.
As far as surface area the flat bottom points have less because of the taper. On center line they have less than .125 as Edwin sujest. The edges are thinner yet, because of the raduis. Therefore, the glueing surface is smaller.
blud
Joseph, I do glue both side of the veneers at the same time, because when I bevel them at a 90, they are still connected in part.
As far as surface area the flat bottom points have less because of the taper. On center line they have less than .125 as Edwin sujest. The edges are thinner yet, because of the raduis. Therefore, the glueing surface is smaller.
blud
blud said:
I don't think you did the math on this or I think that you are referring to CNC cut flat bottomed inlays. You have to remember that I cut those flat bottomed points by hand thus tip depth is assured (cut&fit, cut&fit....until the desired depth and fit is obtained) and should there be decrease on the sidewall surface area I'd say a max of 30% that still leaves a total contact surface of 2,902.xx square mm. which is still greater than the v-splice's surface area of 2,679.xxx sq. mm.
This is one area, depth of inlay, that I'm really bothered with when it's done shallow as this (shallow inlay) is a contributor to inlay pop-out. Shallow inlays are hack jobs and the consumers don't deserve it at custom cue level.
Ed, are you inferring to CNC flat bottom pockets are weaker b/c the top of the points are actually much shallower than the bottom?bandido said:
What if the point groove is cut while the forearm is offset so the top and bottom are almost parralel to the ways of the mill?
Thanks.
points
Hi guys,
I again say VEE points are stronger.
They also have "almost" two times the glueing surface, and have cross grain woods..
A flat bottom point is .475 wide X 10" tall and average of .080 thousandts deep. That's it. A VEE point cavity is .475 deep X 10" long and has two sides. You could lay two flats in the cavity of a VEE point.One on each side of the VEE's cavity. Not hard to figure that out. Flats are not as strong as VEE's and this is why.
Take a 2X4 stud, it's strongest side is the edge. [narrow side]. If you turned it flat, it will bend and then break long before the edge 2X4 would.
Nuff said. If it ain't broke!
Blud
Hi guys,
I again say VEE points are stronger.
They also have "almost" two times the glueing surface, and have cross grain woods..
A flat bottom point is .475 wide X 10" tall and average of .080 thousandts deep. That's it. A VEE point cavity is .475 deep X 10" long and has two sides. You could lay two flats in the cavity of a VEE point.One on each side of the VEE's cavity. Not hard to figure that out. Flats are not as strong as VEE's and this is why.
Take a 2X4 stud, it's strongest side is the edge. [narrow side]. If you turned it flat, it will bend and then break long before the edge 2X4 would.
Nuff said. If it ain't broke!
Blud
tooling
To clear up shallow points. The average tool flute lenght is 3 times the dia. of the tool. Another words, a .03175 tool, [called a .032 thousandts] is only .09525 in flute length. There are some tool makers who make a special lenght mills just for us cuemakers.
I know most of the cuemakers out there today, and most use either the .031 thousandts or .043 tooling.
The depth is not a factor when you use tooling with a big dia. Some use big tooling to "hog" out material and then come back and clean cut the cavity, with a smaer one. I don't do this. I don't believe in stressing the cue while opening it up for inlays. I only use .3175 and smaller in my inlay work.
It does not make a cue cheap and not worth it's price, if it's got a shallow cavity, provided the edges do not wash out.
Blud
To clear up shallow points. The average tool flute lenght is 3 times the dia. of the tool. Another words, a .03175 tool, [called a .032 thousandts] is only .09525 in flute length. There are some tool makers who make a special lenght mills just for us cuemakers.
I know most of the cuemakers out there today, and most use either the .031 thousandts or .043 tooling.
The depth is not a factor when you use tooling with a big dia. Some use big tooling to "hog" out material and then come back and clean cut the cavity, with a smaer one. I don't do this. I don't believe in stressing the cue while opening it up for inlays. I only use .3175 and smaller in my inlay work.
It does not make a cue cheap and not worth it's price, if it's got a shallow cavity, provided the edges do not wash out.
Blud