Spliced points vs. Butterfly points. Blud, Bandido, Joseph Cues..

shallow points

Bandido,

Shallow points if done properly are great. If they are not, and they will pop-out as you say. Then it's bad work. Production and some custom cues are made with shallow points. With the right glue and the cuemaker being a quality craftsman, shallow points are no problem.

My flat or CNC points are .140 thich when they are first inlayed. After turn cutting the cue, the center is .125 thich. The edges are a little thinner as I stated eariler, because of the radius.

The cues got to have "heart" [guts] the inlays are for the most part, art work. They do add strenght, and look nice to.

blud
 
blud said:
Bandido,

Shallow points if done properly are great. If they are not, and they will pop-out as you say. Then it's bad work. Production and some custom cues are made with shallow points. With the right glue and the cuemaker being a quality craftsman, shallow points are no problem.

My flat or CNC points are .140 thich when they are first inlayed. After turn cutting the cue, the center is .125 thich. The edges are a little thinner as I stated eariler, because of the radius.

The cues got to have "heart" [guts] the inlays are for the most part, art work. They do add strenght, and look nice to.

blud
Click to expand...

Ah, I see where the discrepancy in computation here is. You probably have a point base at forearm diameter close to 26 mm. as opposed to mine which is closer to 27 mm. A flat bottomed point that's 3.175 mm (0.125") thick and 16.5 mm wide just won't work with a 26 mm as the flat bottomed point's base edge would only be .022 mm. if inlay depth reference is point centerline.

Talking about contact surfaces, how can the side faces of a flat bottomed point not be considered when they have a corresponding forearm edge? Doesn't this make the flat bottomed a 3 sides contact as oppose to the 2 sides contact of a VEE?
 
blud said:
Hi guys,

I again say VEE points are stronger.
They also have "almost" two times the glueing surface, and have cross grain woods..

A flat bottom point is .475 wide X 10" tall and average of .080 thousandts deep. That's it. A VEE point cavity is .475 deep X 10" long and has two sides.
Click to expand...

I think you forgot to tell us that the .475 deep of the VEE is not constant but is just at the widest part of the VEE.

Take a 2X4 stud, it's strongest side is the edge. [narrow side]. If you turned it flat, it will bend and then break long before the edge 2X4 would.
Nuff said. If it ain't broke!

Blud
Click to expand...

I think this is poor analogy as the side faces of the flat bottomed point aren't suspended but rather glued to adjacent structure.

Blud,
I am not debating strength difference between the 2 points' configurations but rather your using the reason of "more contact surface" for the strength advantage of VEE over Flat. And this I computed "at outside surface of the forearm" reference. In real world, my hand inlayed flat point's bottom is on top of the .75" diameter tenon or even cut into it (endgrain view). With the expensive materials that we use, I'd rather err on the too much side than not enough.
 
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points

Bandido, my VEE points are also joined at the tennon. However, when I center drill and bore and then grind my internal threads, I use a jig/fixture to keep from spreading the wooden tennon. Having the venners go down the far and deep, they are not strong enought too withstand the drilling taping or whatever way it's done.This is why I use a coupling jig/fixture to hold all material inplace when doing these steps.Then I assemble the cue handle to the front.
blud
 
woods

BTW, my analogy was for those who do not have experiance with cues.
It was not poor in my opinion. That's why it was written the way it was..
Venners, installed as we both do, are very strong. I just used the 2x4 as a comparision and bench mark for those who have never had the pleasure of building cues.

blud
 
Bruin,

It is true that CNC points can be spotted a mile away with their blunt edges, however points and inlays done on a pantograph can be very sharp.

Blud,

I am not trying to argue, discredit, or question anything you have said, i found your replies very informative. I just want to ask if you feel that VEE points are more sound, why do most of your cues that i have seen use cnc type points? Maybe I have only seen a small sampling of your cues? If you can, post some pics of VEE pointed cues that you have done, I would love to see them. Just curious, no malicious intent.

It could be my ignorance and not properly understanding what everybody has written, but it is my understanding that spliced points are made in the following fashion:

Starting with a square of maple or whatever the forearm is made of, that square is cut to a perfect cross

At that point strips of the veneer material are glued into place on the cross, with a square of ebony or whatever point material is to be used, in each of the 4 areas on the square.

The whole 'forearm' is then clamped for a long time to allow proper drying

Then the 'forearm' is turned down on the lathe and as it is turned, the points begin to take their shape.

Is this at all accurate? Am I missing a step in between?
 
accdealer said:
Bruin,

It is true that CNC points can be spotted a mile away with their blunt edges, however points and inlays done on a pantograph can be very sharp.

Blud,

I am not trying to argue, discredit, or question anything you have said, i found your replies very informative. I just want to ask if you feel that VEE points are more sound, why do most of your cues that i have seen use cnc type points? Maybe I have only seen a small sampling of your cues? If you can, post some pics of VEE pointed cues that you have done, I would love to see them. Just curious, no malicious intent.

It could be my ignorance and not properly understanding what everybody has written, but it is my understanding that spliced points are made in the following fashion:

Starting with a square of maple or whatever the forearm is made of, that square is cut to a perfect cross

At that point strips of the veneer material are glued into place on the cross, with a square of ebony or whatever point material is to be used, in each of the 4 areas on the square.

The whole 'forearm' is then clamped for a long time to allow proper drying

Then the 'forearm' is turned down on the lathe and as it is turned, the points begin to take their shape.

Is this at all accurate? Am I missing a step in between?
Click to expand...
Points done on a pantograph would be almost the same as if it were done on CNC mill . V points are done with 90 degree cutters not end mill ( hence they are sharper).
 
cues

Yes, I build CNC cues. Panagraph cues are done in the same fashion. With CNC, you write a program, and then plug it in and use it many times, while your doing other cue work in the shop. Panagraphs are hard on you neck, back, and butt.it must be manned while in use.

My cues are of both kinds, CNC, and VEE points. Some of my VEE points are true VEE's. Some I build are flat bottom points, but have very sharp ends.

Your also correct about building up square blocks for Vee pointed cues. I do not use that method. I turn cut and taper my front first and then use my jig for cutting in the VEE points.
Any more question, keep them coming.
blud
 
cues again

Guys just go with what works for you. Try not to get confussed with several differant answers from several people.

There are a lot of capable guys out there.

Remember, there's more than one way to skin a cat.......

For those of you who do direct "your" questions to "me", I'll answer it in the way that make sence to me, cause I have been there done that.
Anything else, I will not comment on.

Been building cues a long time, and I still learn something new each and everyday. I guess i have been lucky, my methods work very well. If they hadn't, I wouldn't be teaching cuemaking, designing,building and selling my machinery or building and selling my cues.
Yep, I don't think I would be here visiting with you guys.
rock away
blud
 
blud said:
Guys just go with what works for you. Try not to get confussed with several differant answers from several people.

There are a lot of capable guys out there.

Remember, there's more than one way to skin a cat.......

For those of you who do direct "your" questions to "me", I'll answer it in the way that make sence to me, cause I have been there done that.
Anything else, I will not comment on.

Been building cues a long time, and I still learn something new each and everyday. I guess i have been lucky, my methods work very well. If they hadn't, I wouldn't be teaching cuemaking, designing,building and selling my machinery or building and selling my cues.
Yep, I don't think I would be here visiting with you guys.
rock away
blud
Click to expand...

Great job, Blud. As stated in my post, I meant no offence. I enjoyed discussing cue topics in a technical level and though we had differing opinion I found it to expand my knowledge. That was a great discussion and I'm sure that all the other readers learned something too.
Like you say......rock on!
Thanks,
Edwin Reyes :)
 
blud as i know from being at the shop and seeing the jig for holding the v-point forearms i think you should elaborate on why this is done for the novices and the explain that some type of phenolic ring is best added in some way where the forearm and handle join each other......this is a subject you could lose alot of people that have never been exposed to quality cue ....i think if you make 2 seperat posting and maybe try to show a hand sketch or something that alot of the unknowing would really be amazed at what it takes to make a super solid cue.......and then let them ask......if he does all this and his cues are reasonable is it worth it to pay for someone elses name.......i promise they might feel like i do and think the common man has put alot of these guys on pedestals and now here we are suffering for it......cant tell me they can justify there price....caus ei promise im not idiot and i can see that they can do anything any stronger or better than leonard......he might be cantankerous but the wealth of knowledg contained in that hard head is out of this world.....just ask him i could sit and ask questions all day....and alot of the time he will get pissed but you know what ....if i didnt value his opinion i wouldnt have asked.....and thats just how i feel......he mioght not always give you a answe and say just do it the way i do and you cant go wrong....but i like to know the ins and the outs and the dos and the dont......he has hurt my feeling before cause of it but i still have the utmost respect for the cuemaker......juston coleman
 
To Juston and all others who shoot questions directed to cuemakers,

I, and am sure that other cuemakers share this opinion, know how a non-cuemaker may feel about unsatisfactory answers or answers from us that are somewhat hanging as we, at one time, were in the same spot as you are. But please understand that certain information about a cuemaker's system are "personal secrets" and not just trade secrets. It does take a lot of hardwork, physically and mentally, to develop some proprietary cuemaking systems. Coupled with this hardwork are all the mistakes and ruined materials that really makes these "personally developed/discovered secrets" real valuable to that cuemaker.

I assure you though that topics concerning basic to intermediate cuemaking (including ones that cannot be found in books and videos available) will readily be answered.

Here's a little advice to aspiring cuemakers:
Cuemakers who are dedicated to their craft has not just the "how" to search an answer for but always searches for the "why of the how" then "What can be a better way?"

Juston, Blud showed you the "how" and not the "why". Be thankful as he has given you an important gift. His letting you figure out the "why of the how" has set you to someday feel completely satisfied with the craft you do.

Edwin Reyes
 
You know, I read this entire post and now I have a headache. Maybe I can just be a cue designer, and leave the making of them to the pros. :-)
 
cues again

cuewhiz189 said:
blud as i know from being at the shop and seeing the jig for holding the v-point forearms i think you should elaborate on why this is done for the novices and the explain that some type of phenolic ring is best added in some way where the forearm and handle join each other......this is a subject you could lose alot of people that have never been exposed to quality cue ....i think if you make 2 seperat posting and maybe try to show a hand sketch or something that alot of the unknowing would really be amazed at what it takes to make a super solid cue.......and then let them ask......if he does all this and his cues are reasonable is it worth it to pay for someone elses name.......i promise they might feel like i do and think the common man has put alot of these guys on pedestals and now here we are suffering for it......cant tell me they can justify there price....caus ei promise im not idiot and i can see that they can do anything any stronger or better than leonard......he might be cantankerous but the wealth of knowledg contained in that hard head is out of this world.....just ask him i could sit and ask questions all day....and alot of the time he will get pissed but you know what ....if i didnt value his opinion i wouldnt have asked.....and thats just how i feel......he mioght not always give you a answe and say just do it the way i do and you cant go wrong....but i like to know the ins and the outs and the dos and the dont......he has hurt my feeling before cause of it but i still have the utmost respect for the cuemaker......juston coleman
Click to expand...

Hello Juston,
I elect not to give up what I normally charge for. It's my call. I do rerspect your opinion, and will tell those who are really interested in cues and what it takes. As you know, I could even today with your vast-knowlege, loose you if I got to some finer details of cues and there make-up. I'll do my best to help all.

Many guys have come and gone. Not many come and really want to build cues for the same reasons I do. I build cues, [sure for money] but I first build them for the love of building something a guy or gal can play with and if need be, make a living doing so. In my way of thinking, first you got to want to do it from your heart, then the rest will follow.
 
was not finished

blud said:
Hello Juston,
I elect not to give up what I normally charge for. It's my call. I do rerspect your opinion, and will tell those who are really interested in cues and what it takes. As you know, I could even today with your vast-knowlege, loose you if I got to some finer details of cues and there make-up. I'll do my best to help all.

Many guys have come and gone. Not many come and really want to build cues for the same reasons I do. I build cues, [sure for money] but I first build them for the love of building something a guy or gal can play with and if need be, make a living doing so. In my way of thinking, first you got to want to do it from your heart, then the rest will follow.
Click to expand...


Sorry I hit the wrong key, guys.
To finish up,

Nothing wrong with being a plain old country boy. Some guys have reputations [as Juston has pointed out] of being up on a pedistal. Not me. I use good old common sence when it come to building cues and or machinery.
I have not and do not, copy anyone elses cues and or methods. I use my own. Works for me.

Some high-ends cuemakers and a few lower end cuemakers, have pretty cues. They can't make a ball for the most part. Cues play bad.
My question to you good folks is, do they know how to build a great hitting cue, when they can not read the true hit of a cue, cause they are cluess.
Hell no...
They only copy others and then hope in most cases that there cues play well. A few I know do not give a rats ass if the cue plays well or not. They are just in it for the money.

Talked to one of these guys a few days ago. Wanted to know how to build a jig for points. My reply was and will stay at this, [send cash and I'll build it for you with a video to show you how]. High-end cuemaker. Dumb-ass...for sure.

This same guy would not say hello, if I saw him on the street. He's just as Juston said, high and mighty.
Keep comin with questions.

blud
 
Blud, you touched a hot button on that last post.
Really, the biggest attribute a cuemaker should have is CONSCIENCE.
How many cuemakers will use wood he knows looks pretty but has bad tonal characteristics ( if he even cares about the wood's tone)? How many will let a his cues go on the market even though he knows they hit like slugs ( if he even cares to test his cues' hits)? How many care if his cues have way too much filled-up air gaps inside?
Sadly, the market for cues today is dictated mostly by cue "artists".
One of em said if you buy his cues to play with, you bought it for the wrong reasons. Huh? He sells for wall hangers. That's like selling a pretty but dull knife won't you say? And there's this cue artist who peddles his cues on Fleabay daily by the dozens now. All one of a kind.
And for those cuemakers who build cues to be pretty and very playable, God bless them. Juston named a few of them before.
And to Juston, I hope you make cues someday buddy. You'll be one of those cuemakers with conscience.
Thanks Blud.
 
blud said:
There are a lot of capable guys out there.

Remember, there's more than one way to skin a cat.......

Been building cues a long time, and I still learn something new each and everyday. I guess i have been lucky, my methods work very well. If they hadn't, I wouldn't be teaching cuemaking, designing,building and selling my machinery or building and selling my cues.
Yep, I don't think I would be here visiting with you guys.
rock away
blud
Click to expand...

Blud makes a good point.. there is definately more than one way to skin a cat, and there are many beliefs on how to skin said cat. Blud and Edwin have their own ways of making cues but I have read a few things here that would be vehemently argued by other cuemakers. I think this should be kept in mind for anyone reading these posts. There are cuemakers that think "their" pin, is the end all of joining devices, their constructions are the best etc.. just visit some web sites and you will see that.

Joe
 
differant ways

classiccues said:
Blud makes a good point.. there is definately more than one way to skin a cat, and there are many beliefs on how to skin said cat. Blud and Edwin have their own ways of making cues but I have read a few things here that would be vehemently argued by other cuemakers. I think this should be kept in mind for anyone reading these posts. There are cuemakers that think "their" pin, is the end all of joining devices, their constructions are the best etc.. just visit some web sites and you will see that.

Joe
Click to expand...

Joe, your right. Some will disagree, and have good reasons for doing so. Then you have those who will disagree because they have nothing to add for anyone to learn.

Then you have those who thinks the crap don't stink, right?

I know in my heart that my way is best for "MY" cues.

I will say this in my defence,
At one point in my cuemaking, I have had 17 plus pro-players playing with my cues because they played great. None received money for this. Hell, I was broke all the time. But those guys and Dolls played with my cues cause they played well. Hell of a record, don't you think. Not bragging, just stating facts. Proff my stuff plays well.
In short, IT AIN'T BROKE, SO I AIN'T FIXIN IT.............

Speaking of pins, the joint pin is the weakest link in the cue. It's a temperarry connection at most. That being the case, it should be the best one can make and use. I use the same size pin in the heart of my cues. It's under the back of the front and the top of the wrap area. I use good stuff.
again, guys, it ain't broke.......Each to his own.
Blud
 
cuemaker, please!

Joseph Cues said:
Blud, you touched a hot button on that last post.
Really, the biggest attribute a cuemaker should have is CONSCIENCE.
How many cuemakers will use wood he knows looks pretty but has bad tonal characteristics ( if he even cares about the wood's tone)? How many will let a his cues go on the market even though he knows they hit like slugs ( if he even cares to test his cues' hits)? How many care if his cues have way too much filled-up air gaps inside?
Sadly, the market for cues today is dictated mostly by cue "artists".
One of em said if you buy his cues to play with, you bought it for the wrong reasons. Huh? He sells for wall hangers. That's like selling a pretty but dull knife won't you say? And there's this cue artist who peddles his cues on Fleabay daily by the dozens now. All one of a kind.
And for those cuemakers who build cues to be pretty and very playable, God bless them. Juston named a few of them before.
And to Juston, I hope you make cues someday buddy. You'll be one of those cuemakers with conscience.
Thanks Blud.
Click to expand...

Hi Joseph, the same cuemaker who said they are not for playing but looking at, said this, Quote, The reason for the cue being wraped, is so you can shot around another ball easier.unquote.
No joke. I stood and heard him say this to a German dealer. Needless to say, the German guy, droped his line of cues.
blud
 
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