Stance question

[justadub]

I ran into something last night, and I'd like a little advice, if I could.

(Before I start, I know I should get a lesson from a trained professional. Or two, or three! I also know that without actually seeing what I'm doing it is nearly impossible to diagnose the true issue. I'm merely looking for possibilities, from folks who have seen this stuff hundreds of times before. Hopefully my description makes sense.)

I've been struggling a bit the last week or two, moreso than usual. I'm looking at everything from grip, to bridge, to where on the cue I'm gripping, etc. (All of those things could use work, too, of course ) As I was doing so last evening, I glanced at a guy shooting a few tables away from me, and noticed he was almost in a snooker style stance, hips almost parallel to the table. As this has happened to me in the past, I do the Homer-Simpson-slap-to-the-forehead-saying"Doh"... and immediately closed my stance just a bit. Viola! A bit better success.

My question to you folks is how can I develop a check-off to determine where my feet should be for my partcicular stance, in order to keep my hips nearer where they should be. What seems to be best for me (in my extremely uneducated opinion) is about a 45 degree angle from the cuestick. It only takes a little shift for my hips to "open up" and I'm back in the position that doesn't seem to work as well for me. I've never been in a stance so "open" as to be confused with a snooker style stance, just recently had let my hips get too far in that direction for the what has seemed to work for me in the past.

Does my description make sense? And my diagnosis? I'm trying to figure out a check-off of sorts, to insure that everything is where it's supposed to be, so that I can make it a part of my pre-shot routine. Some method that isn't involved, so that it will become easy and natural enough to not think about once I get it down.

As always, I appreciate the time you folks take to read and discuss this stuff with us. Thanks.

 

[pooltchr]

Justa...if I understand your question correctly, here's something you can try.
Stand straight up, holding your cue around the balance point in your grip hand. Let your arm hang down by your side with your hand around your hip. Now close your eyes, and try to completely relax. Give it about 30 seconds, then open your eyes and look down at your cue. It may be pointing straight ahead, which would indicate a snooker stance might be more natural for you. More than likely, it will be pointing across you at about a 30 or 45 degree angle. Now, leaving the cue at that natural angle, shuffle your feet and bring the cue around to bring it in line with your shot. Now notice the angle you are standing reletive to the shot. You can open your stance as needed, but try to keep the same body angle reletive to the cue and the shot.
That should give you a pretty good starting point.

Steve
(You're welcome to come down here for a couple of days whenever you're ready)

 

[justadub]

Justa...if I understand your question correctly, here's something you can try.
Stand straight up, holding your cue around the balance point in your grip hand. Let your arm hang down by your side with your hand around your hip. Now close your eyes, and try to completely relax. Give it about 30 seconds, then open your eyes and look down at your cue. It may be pointing straight ahead, which would indicate a snooker stance might be more natural for you. More than likely, it will be pointing across you at about a 30 or 45 degree angle. Now, leaving the cue at that natural angle, shuffle your feet and bring the cue around to bring it in line with your shot. Now notice the angle you are standing reletive to the shot. You can open your stance as needed, but try to keep the same body angle reletive to the cue and the shot.
That should give you a pretty good starting point.

Steve
(You're welcome to come down here for a couple of days whenever you're ready)

Thanks Steve. I'm pretty sure that's the idea I'm looking for, and I think that without even checking with a cue in my hand (which I certainly will do tonight) that is the right stance for me.

What I really need is a way to somehow check myself in my approach to the table to make sure I'm not getting "too open." I think I remember reading here at one time to point your left foot in the direction you want to shoot, but that really leads to me "opening up". So I can't use that.

As I mentioned, this has happened to me before. And for the life of me I'm not smart enough to remember to check the stance when I'm struggling, at least not initially. It seems to take a week or two of aggravation before dawn breaks over marblehead, and I get that "Doh!" moment. I'm kinda hoping for something to incorporate into my routine that can help insure I'm aligned properly.

(And yes, I'd love to some spend a couple days down there, getting straightened out for real! Someday, hopefully soon. )

 

[pooltchr]

I don't think the direction your foot is pointing is anywhere near as important as where your foot is. You need to be comfortable in your stance, and if you are trying to twist your foot to point a certain way, that may not be the best thing to do.

Once you know how your stance should be reletive to the shot, you can place the cue on the shot line, and then step into the cue. Eventually, you may get to the point where you are doing both at the same time.

This is what pool school is all about...breaking the game down to the smallest parts, making sure each part is working properly, and then putting it all together.

Any time, my friend.

Steve

 

[sfleinen]

justadub:

First, you have a monster in your midst in the form of Steve Jennings in this thread. If you can get a lesson from him -- or any of the other SPF instructors (e.g. randyg, Scott Lee) -- you'll be doing yourself a huge favor.

Put it this way: a friend of mine, Doug M., plays as a "5" for the APA. He was for the longest time trying to "scarf" free advice from me anytime we'd play. (We'd play straight pool, and I'd spot him 75 balls in a race to 150, or impose a "42-or-no-count" handicap on myself, or something along those lines to make things fair.) Doug was very inconsistent, and although he had flashes of brilliant shot making, he'd pooch some basic shots. Absolutely dog them. He was very inconsistent, making mistakes at precisely the wrong time (e.g. missing a basic break ball, splashing the rack wide open, and leaving me with a veritable turkey shoot). The same thing in 8-ball; he'd be on a run, and make the grand faux pas of 8-ball -- i.e. run most of his balls off the table, and miss his last ball (or snooker yourself on the 8-ball) giving the opponent an open table and turkey shoot to enjoy. While I tried my best to entertain his questions and give him answers without spending an inordinate time using our practice time as "instruction time," I knew he needed focused attention on his stroke. The problem was convincing *HIM* that he needed it.

Well, long story short, I ultimately did -- got Doug to loosen those purse strings -- and got him to retain Scott Lee's services for a day.

Cutting to the chase, after Scott Lee's video analysis and focused attention, Doug's consistency saw a dramatic and lasting improvement. In fact, last year (several months after his session with Scott), Doug placed 5th in the APA National Singles 8-ball in Vegas. This year, the field was even tougher (and on rattier / poorly-setup tables as recent threads attested to), but Doug placed 9th regardless. Prior to Scott Lee's attention, Doug would go 2-and-out, or maybe win a match here and there, but never go deep into a national tourney like this.

Now, failing that (i.e. focused video-taped analysis / tutoring), you'll need to decide which kind of stance you want to pursue:

A. The Lance Perkins standard pool stance
B. The standard snooker stance

The difference between these two is significant. The Lance Perkins stance has the feet at approximately a 45 degree angle to the shot line (with the hips following the feet closely, thereby opening up the hips), while the snooker stance faces the feet *into* the shot line, thus closing the hips to be perpendicular to the shot line. There are also head-eye alignment differences between the two styles -- the Lance Perkins style tends to angle the face on the shot line (i.e. one eye leads the other), while the snooker stance places the eyes square and equidistant on the shot line.

You'll have to figure out which is more appropriate for *you*. If you want to pursue the snooker stance, the Del Hill series of videos are a great primer:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gSK4w_9S_x0

I'm an advocate of the snooker stance simply because for EVERY SHOT it describes the same precise placement and orientation of all your body parts, with the associated pre-shot routine checklist therewith. Every shot on the table (save jacked-up or jump shots) has the same, precise placement and orientation of your feet, your knees, your hips, your back, your shoulders, your arms, your hands, and yes, your head-eye alignment over the shot. (The bridge, by the way, doesn't matter -- don't think you "have to" use an open bridge with the snooker stance. I happen to use a closed bridge with my snooker stance.) The Lance Perkins pool stance doesn't address all these things as rigidly as the snooker stance does, thus some "creepage" of error (or "variance") can come into play.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

 

[pooltchr]

Sean,
Thanks for the kind words. I must however, point out that neither the snooker, nor standard pool stance will work on every shot. Without doing a cue table diagram, imagine the cue ball 3 inches out from the side pocket, and the object ball on the same rail half way to the corner. It would be almost impossible to shoot the shot using a snooker stance.

There is a natural stance that will work most of the time for everyone, but you also need to be ready to change it when conditions force the issue.

A minor point, but certainly one to consider. Our advanced class teaches SOP...Standard Operating Proceedure, that will work for about 80 percent of shots. But there is always that other 20% that forces you to alter your SOP.

Steve

 

[justadub]

Thanks again, guys. I'm quite certain that until I can get with Steve or Scott or someone like them, I'll probably never "get it" all on my own, but until such a time as I can work that out logistically I'm gonna keep plugging away. The advice here is always wonderful. and greatly appreciated. I feel that I make small steps of progress, and given the limited time I have to practice and the short time I've been playing, I'm still encouraged.

And having a ball.

I'll try these steps later this evening, Steve, and hopefully I can get that part of the game somewhat settled. Of course we're playing our league division championship match this evening, so I won't have a lot of time to play around with stuff.

 

[pooltchr]

Don't even attempt it until you finish competition. The worst thing you can do is try to work on something new just before a big match.

Steve

 

[justadub]

Don't even attempt it until you finish competition. The worst thing you can do is try to work on something new just before a big match.

Steve

Odds are I won't be playing, but I get what you're saying. I should have plenty of time on a practice table when I'm not keeping score, just so I can try to get my hips where they usually are.

 

[sfleinen]

Hi Steve and justadub,

I didn't see that this thread got moved to the "Ask the Instructor" forum until now.

Sean,
Thanks for the kind words. I must however, point out that neither the snooker, nor standard pool stance will work on every shot. Without doing a cue table diagram, imagine the cue ball 3 inches out from the side pocket, and the object ball on the same rail half way to the corner. It would be almost impossible to shoot the shot using a snooker stance.

Well, come on now, Steve. That's obvious and *of course* it's true there is no "one stance" that works for every position at the table. There's bound to be shots where the table itself gets in the way of where you stand (as in your example of attempting to shoot a shot down the rail to the lower half of the table, where the upper part of the table itself is in the way of where you'd stand). In this case, you adapt the stance accordingly. For me, it's a matter of a slight sideways lean to one side or the other over the table, or switching hands -- shooting opposite-handed. (That's something I actually practice -- shooting opposite-handed so that I'm comfortable with it.)

There is a natural stance that will work most of the time for everyone, but you also need to be ready to change it when conditions force the issue.

Absolutely! One can't be so rigidly fixated on a "one size fits all" approach to the stance that he/she actually hobbles his/her own ability to make those shots that are just outside reach, may require the mechanical bridge, or the ability to switch hands. (In fact, in one pocket, I find that I have greater "feel" for certain shots that require a fine "touch" with my opposite hand, than I do the mechanical bridge. As well, in 14.1, there are some break shots where you have to lean sideways over the table to get to them, or switch hands.)

A minor point, but certainly one to consider. Our advanced class teaches SOP...Standard Operating Proceedure, that will work for about 80 percent of shots. But there is always that other 20% that forces you to alter your SOP.

Steve

Yup, I agree. And I agree it's good to practice those "pain in the taint" shots (or ones that require a modification to the stance to get around table obstacles) as well.

I also agree that, "immediately prior" to a large event where you are going to have to perform at your best, is the WRONG time to begin adopting a new stance. A new PSR, maybe, but a new stance? No. I'd wait until you know you'll have a couple months of lag/spare time to practice, absorb, and commit it to muscle memory, before the next major event begins. And even then, one has to make sure to practice all the standard shots, because they will now look and "feel" different to you. The very last time you want to be experiencing the "why does this shot I was formerly very comfortable with, now 'feel' different to me?" feeling is during a tournament, gambling session, or what-not.

Great thread!
-Sean

 

[justadub]

All good stuff, as usual. But I gotta tweak ya, Sean (especially since I know you'll take it as it's intended, all in fun) this thread's been here in the Ask The Instructors subforum the whole time. :wink: What's going on, too many network interfaces messing with your synapses? :wave3::smile2::wave2:

And for clarities sake, I'm not looking to "change" my stance wholesale, I was looking for a little help tweaking it. But all the information is certainly relevant, and greatly appreciated.

(And as I expected, I didn't play last night. Tho perhaps I should have, as sadly we lost. Still, a very good session for us, finishing second, after this team finished first the previous session. We get a little money for second place, too, despite what some folks think about the league that I play in, wink wink. We were already qualified for the state tournament, where we could get the chance at Vegas. No sandbagging for us, already qualified, and still driving for the session championships!)

I never even took my cues out of the bag to try your suggestions, I was very busy keeping score and trying to encourage my teammates. Perhaps this evening I'll get a little table time before going home, and I'll see what I can see. Thanks again!