Steel DoveTail for Taig-Based Lathes - Worth It?

[GBCues]

I didn't want to hijack CueSmith's thread in the other forum - he's looking for a source for a steel dovetail. At one time I thought I really wanted one too. I'm just wondering for those of you that converted from the standard aluminum dovetails to a steel dovetail thought it was worth it? It's not that big of a project IMHO, but I've spent good money on "good ideas" before only to ask myself afterwards, "What's the big deal?"

There is also the option of the hard anodized aluminum dovetails, but I've been reminded that the anodization (sp?) wears off after a while.

Any comments?

Thanks

Gary

 

[tsp&b]

Standard anodize does but true "Hard coat" anodize will be there for a long, long time. True "Hard coat" anodize is approximately 4 to 5 times harder than HHS... but it is also thin and very brittle. It will chip, but it wears very very well.

 

[cueman]

The surface on our anodized beds is harder than Rockwell Steel. Wood dust is very hard on mild steel and will wear a few thousandths off of a steel bed long before you wear through the anodizing on the aluminum beds if they are done properly. Not all anodizing procedures are done to the same hardness or thickness and there are only a handful of shops in the country that can do it right.

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

The surface on our anodized beds is harder than Rockwell Steel. Wood dust is very hard on mild steel and will wear a few thousandths off of a steel bed long before you wear through the anodizing on the aluminum beds if they are done properly. Not all anodizing procedures are done to the same hardness or thickness and there are only a handful of shops in the country that can do it right.

I have never heard of "Rockwell Steel". I have heard of the Rockwell Hardness Test.

 

[cueman]

I have never heard of "Rockwell Steel". I have heard of the Rockwell Hardness Test.

Sounds fishy to Arnot

You are using the more correct terminology.
The term Rockwell Steel Hardness that I have heard many machinists use through the years is just refering to steel that has been hardened to what ever measure of hardness the Rockwell test provides. I failed to use the full term. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

You are using the more correct terminology.
The term Rockwell Steel Hardness that I have heard many machinists use through the years is just refering to steel that has been hardened to what ever measure of hardness the Rockwell test provides. I failed to use the full term. Thanks for pointing that out.

Then what is the Rockwell hardness of your anodized bed?

 

[conetip]

Then what is the Rockwell hardness of your anodized bed?

You can not rockwell hardness test aluminum, as the diamond goes through the coating when loading and testing.The substrate is too soft.
Like trying to to test shallow cased components.

 

[cueman]

Then what is the Rockwell hardness of your anodized bed?

The surface is basically turned into a thin sapphire when done. I was told a sapphire is harder than most metals will rate on the rockwell hardness test. We are talking wear hardness and not dent hardness of the bed surface.

 

[Arnot Wadsworth]

The surface is basically turned into a thin sapphire when done. I was told a sapphire is harder than most metals will rate on the rockwell hardness test. We are talking wear hardness and not dent hardness of the bed surface.

Thank you for clearning this up for me.

 

[cueman]

I finally found the Moh's hardness chart that explains much better what I was talking about than my poor terminology did.
Below is some common items on the scale. A sapphire comes in at a 9 and hardened steel at a 7-8. And regular steel is only a 4 - 4.5. So the surface wear hardness of the hard anodized aluminum bed will be a 9. But the denting hardness would still be about a 3. So for denting the steel bed would be better, but for wear from things sliding along it the hard anodized aluminum would be better.

Moh’s Hardness Scale

Plastic - 1
Lead - 1.5
Tin - 1.5
Ivory - 2.5
Zinc - 2.5
Gold - 2.5 - 3
Silver - 2.5 - 3
Aluminum - 2.5 - 3
Copper - 3
Brass - 3
Bronze - 3
Shells - 3
Nickel - 4
Platinum - 4 - 4.5
Steel - 4 - 4.5
Iron - 4.5
Palladium - 4.75
Opal - 5.5 - 6
Turquoise - 5.5 - 6
Rhodium - 6
Titanium - 6
Jade - 6 - 7
Glass - 6 - 7
Hardened Steel - 7 - 8
Tungsten - 7.5
Tungsten Carbide - 8.5 – 9
Corundum - 9
Sapphire - 9
Ruby - 9
Carborundum - 9 - 9.5
Diamond - 10
Nanorods - 10+

 

[JBCustomCues]

Ok than how does your lathe beds rate on this scale??? I know that when I had one of your lathes I tried to turn a few metal joint colors and the the metal shavings scratches the hell out of my bed straight down to the bair aluminum.. Also I see no ratings on hard anodized aluminum so how do you know of a rating?? Now when I talked to Cliff from taig he told me that the reason that the beds were made that way was because they could not make the long metal beds like on they use on there lathes.. So you guys settled on aluminum extruded beds and had them hard anodized so they dont gult the bed and other aluminum components of the lathe and also give them better wear protection.. Now dont you think that if these aluminum beds were better that their steel beds taig would switch.. I know I sure would if that were the case..

 

[rhncue]

I've got one question. Chris has been building these machines for a long time and many people are happily using them. Has there been a problem with premature wear or easy marring of the present anodized aluminum beds? If not, then, who cares what process is used in the components construction. Items are built to conform to it's user's needs at a monetary constraint. I could buy a Rolls Royce to take me to the grocery store but do I need to go to that expense when a Ford will do the same job only much more economically.

Dick

 

[cueman]

Ok than how does your lathe beds rate on this scale??? I know that when I had one of your lathes I tried to turn a few metal joint colors and the the metal shavings scratches the hell out of my bed straight down to the bair aluminum.. Also I see no ratings on hard anodized aluminum so how do you know of a rating?? Now when I talked to Cliff from taig he told me that the reason that the beds were made that way was because they could not make the long metal beds like on they use on there lathes.. So you guys settled on aluminum extruded beds and had them hard anodized so they dont gult the bed and other aluminum components of the lathe and also give them better wear protection.. Now dont you think that if these aluminum beds were better that their steel beds taig would switch.. I know I sure would if that were the case..

Steel has more denting strength, which means in an abuse situation like you are mentioning it would break through the surface coat. You are also assuming in this if I am understanding right that the mild steel bed would not get a scratch on it. Wood dust has proven to wear away the mild steel beds they make much faster than the hard coat aluminum beds. This was proven by some high production CNC pen making lathes running all day long. You failed to see what was written about the surface being turned into the same material that sapphires are made of. That is where I get the 9 rating on the few thousandths of surface. But underneath that few thousandths is a 3 rating. So you are jamming metal in and smashing it right through that surface coating. Use a little oil on the bed and clean it off. 90% of my cues have been assembled since 1996 on the same hard coated bed lathe. It does look rough now but still works fine.

 

[GBCues]

I wanted to thank everyone for their replies to my original question - I, for one, have learned a lot.

It was not my intent to start an argument, just get some information, which I have. I know it's hard to get a gauge on the poster's emotions when reading a post, so I'm hoping this discussion is all in the spirit of sharing information and not trying to blame or accuse anyone for anything.

Thanks again all!

Gary

 

[conetip]

Nitriding of steel puts a layer on the surface of the steel that is no longer steel and is very hard like annodising is to ali. Nitriding is expensive and the parts need to be stress free.
Annodising is also expensive and depending on the bath composition and temp has an impact on the hardness attained.
What is more important than the hardness of the lathe bed, is the ability to keep dust swarf or any byprodutcs from manufacturing , getting under the sliding surfaces.
There are numerous ways of doing this, and as long as the slides stay clean,the machine will not wear out.
We have found on machines that work in abrasive swarf situations, that having very sharp edges on the sliding parts, ie not deburred at all, they last longer and the offending swarf is wiped away.Parts that had the edge deburred and chamfered, did not last long, soon gummed up and wore out more quickly.The swarf was embedded under the sliding parts.the rest is history.

 

[Trent]

I've got one question. Chris has been building these machines for a long time and many people are happily using them. Has there been a problem with premature wear or easy marring of the present anodized aluminum beds? If not, then, who cares what process is used in the components construction. Items are built to conform to it's user's needs at a monetary constraint. I could buy a Rolls Royce to take me to the grocery store but do I need to go to that expense when a Ford will do the same job only much more economically.

Dick

Hey dick i had one and when i recieved it it was about 6 months old then after about 6 months of me using it day in day out the first 6 inches or so in front of the headstock were scared up pretty good and i coated my bed in oil and cleaned it regularly.

this was the only lathe i had from chris but i bought another lathe similar to it and it was just a aluminum bed no coating and it really scared up deep and fast.