Steel/phenolic joint?

[Cue Crazy]

I prefer the steel joint over a lighter material in My personal cue. I like the feel of wood to wood also, just does not suite My feel on some shots, so I feel kind of limited, and seem to be able to do more with a steel. It's not everyone's style, just a personal feel of mine, but Only thing I can figure is must be the extra weight in the joint or hardness of material that allows me to get more spin when I need It. I have not built a cue using a steel joint yet. I do not have thread capability for the tenon other then a compression dye at the time. Any tips on installing one that way? Such as best suited tenon size/diameter before threading with one or method of hardening the wood to cut cleaner threads? Also best forearm diameter/time to install the steel joint? Should I just be sanding the forearm to the steel in the end or is the steel actually cut to the cue? And at what time should I be installing the pin when using the steel joint? Also should I under cut the forearm and finish up to the steel or finish over? If I was to finish over a smooth polished joint, would'nt I have a problem with it peeling or lifting later. I know It's alot of questions but considering putting one on a cue I am working on for Myself, and any help would be very apprietiated.

Also, anything I can add to a phenolic joint to add weight or stiffen the hit to aquire something close feeling to a steel joint? I know some of the technics for that, so don't expect anyone to give that one up on here, what I'm really asking is what material would help the most?

Thanks Guys, any idea's are apprietiated, It always helps to have several opinions, gives me a reference with coming up with a method that works well with what capibilities I have, and something I can live with. I have recieved alot of good advice on here, so thanks to all that have helped in the past. Made It through the steel rings & the pins seem to be going pretty good for me now, time to move on to the harder stuff, and try a steel joint I guess.

Thanks
Greg

 

[Murray Tucker]

I prefer the steel joint over a lighter material in My personal cue. I like the feel of wood to wood also, just does not suite My feel on some shots, so I feel kind of limited, and seem to be able to do more with a steel. It's not everyone's style, just a personal feel of mine, but Only thing I can figure is must be the extra weight in the joint or hardness of material that allows me to get more spin when I need It. I have not built a cue using a steel joint yet. I do not have thread capability for the tenon other then a compression dye at the time. Any tips on installing one that way? Such as best suited tenon size/diameter before threading with one or method of hardening the wood to cut cleaner threads? Also best forearm diameter/time to install the steel joint? Should I just be sanding the forearm to the steel in the end or is the steel actually cut to the cue? And at what time should I be installing the pin when using the steel joint? Also should I under cut the forearm and finish up to the steel or finish over? If I was to finish over a smooth polished joint, would'nt I have a problem with it peeling or lifting later. I know It's alot of questions but considering putting one on a cue I am working on for Myself, and any help would be very apprietiated.

Also, anything I can add to a phenolic joint to add weight or stiffen the hit to aquire something close feeling to a steel joint? I know some of the technics for that, so don't expect anyone to give that one up on here, what I'm really asking is what material would help the most?

Thanks Guys, any idea's are apprietiated, It always helps to have several opinions, gives me a reference with coming up with a method that works well with what capibilities I have, and something I can live with. I have recieved alot of good advice on here, so thanks to all that have helped in the past. Made It through the steel rings & the pins seem to be going pretty good for me now, time to move on to the harder stuff, and try a steel joint I guess.

Thanks
Greg

Call me Mon. or Tue. I can't coach you through a SS joint with my typing skills.

 

[hadjcues]

Greg, as for using phenolic joints - you could use it capped or you could sleeve the inside walls with SS or brass, that would stiffen it up a bit.
Now let me know what Mr. Tucker told you... LOL

 

[Sheldon]

If you want more weight forward, core your cues with denser woods, and/or use heavier pins.
If I do a steel joint, I prefer the thin-walled ones. The heavier joints tend to deaden the cue, IMO.

 

[Michael Webb]

I have hit with a lot of Stainless joint cues.
Joss, Schon, BlackBoar, They are far from giving a dead hit.

 

[Canadian cue]

I like thin wall SS over phenolic. I have found that when you install a SS directly over the wood there is a much greater chance of the collar coming loose.(The wood can shrink over time but the steel does not) I also do not like the extra weight of a traditional SS joint.

 

[cueman]

I have hit with a lot of Stainless joint cues.
Joss, Schon, BlackBoar, They are far from giving a dead hit.

Mike,
In Sheldon's defense I have to agree with his statement. He said it deadens the cue. Not that the stainless cues would have a dead hit. It just means they won't be as lively as they could have been with a different joint. I have built cues both ways and the none stainless joint cues produce more cueball action. Now that Simonis cloth has taken over and people don't need as high action of a cue to move the cueball, stainless jointed cues have made a comeback. I have hit with stainless jointed cues that had all the action you could ask for, but that is the exception instead of the rule. I attribute it to the wood and tip instead of the joint. Some pieces of wood and tips just play real special.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com

 

[Michael Webb]

I hear what you and Sheldon are saying, I still disagree. There is a difference
in hit and a difference in deflection, I just wouldn't say it deadens the hit. It's to subjective to personal choice.

 

[cueman]

I hear what you and Sheldon are saying, I still disagree. There is a difference
in hit and a difference in deflection, I just wouldn't say it deadens the hit. It's to subjective to personal choice.

Maybe we are arguing about semantics. My definition of deadens is simply that it does not produce the same amount of compression and cue ball action. As a whole it produces less cueball action. If "hit" means noise you hear and vibration that you can feel when striking the cue ball. A stainless joint increases that. Some are after that sound and feel and might feel stainless joints make their cue more lively. That is what I call feel and it is totally as you say "subjective to personal choice." But I do feel stainless joints decrease cue ball action overall. But the feel or hit someone is after is totally up to them. There is no best, just what you like or dislike.

 

[Michael Webb]

I must have missed something, Who's arguing.

 

[Cue Crazy]

The stainless having a dead hit seems like a subjective statement IMO. I also think there must be a different perception in definition or something.They actually feel more lively to me, but in all fairness to sheldon, he is not alone in that theory, because I have heard the same thing from many others. In fact more people have told me that, then aggree with Me on them giving more action/spin.

I guess it just depends on what someone is used to. I have shot with both, but always end up sticking with the steel in the end. Honestly I feel more limited with the wood hit. It pockets balls like a dream, even better then the steel, because they do stroke nicely, and holds a good line on the object ball. but just does'nt put the extreme spin on the c ball like I sometimes use. Ofcoarse that extra spin is not for everyone, especially the more mechanical players. The steel will get away from some people when trying to pocket balls, but that does not sound like the result of a dead hit IMO. What It allows me to do is aim off center pocket, still make the ball, and minipulate the cue for position easier. Basically I can make My own angles for cue ball position when need be, instead of being forced to follow the natural angle. Sure you guys know what I am talking about.

I am not much of a mechanical type player. I get in situations, and need more action for stun strokes, and such on ocasion. I try to stay in line, and follow the table for the most part, but tend to force the c ball for position when need be by controlling the spin. I use some amount of this on most shots, but not enough that most people notice, until I have to do something more extreme.

I have had a few steel joints that felt flat, so maybe that's where It comes from, when I get one of those, I just move on to another. The ones I stick with have so much action, that It would actually be hard to control for some. Sometimes even too much for Me.

My ultimate hit would be a combination of the 2 types of hit. Something between a wood feel and steel. Maybe I should try a sleeved steel (phenolic has crossed My mind for that). For some reason the sleeved type ss joint were never My favorite design, so never gave them a chance to see. Most of the steels I've used were thick threaded SS joints. That's all I have right now to try, besides some brass joints made the same way. I will order some sleeves when I get a chance and see if that gives me the combination I am looking for. Maybe sleeve under the steel with something more stable to help with the wood contracting, and loosing the bonding surface.

It is amazing how opinions vary on the hit of steel, usually I am alone in the thought that I get action from them, so this is a twist on that one.

Greg



BTW, Thanks for offering your advice Murray,when Is the best time of day to call? Not sure If I still have your # or not. Is the one on the M.T. 3 site the correct one to get ahold of you at?


Here is a picture of the cue in progress that I want to put My first ss joint on. Forearm is old straight grain, straight grain handle all the way back from the a, and the butt assembley is sleeved over that. Seems to be balancing out pretty natural so far. I am just going on feel with it, so not sure how much the joint will add to the front because I need a new scale. I tend to like them balanced forward, and pretty sure It will fall more in that direction either way. What do you guys think? Will the ss sleeved give me a combination of steel hit and a wood hit, If I went that way, because that's what I would really like on this one, someting in between. I will eventually try all styles to see, but wondering if anyone knows from experience.

Thanks for the input Guys, Greg

 

[Michael Webb]

That's a great looking cue Greg.

 

[hadjcues]

Ey Greg buddy... nice one there... you've been hiding out from me dude LOL
I've got those sleeve SS joints but havent touched them for the past 2 years... they're around 0.750 ID but I won't put a 3/4 wood tenon on that. Prolly with a phenolic sleeve... then prolly in reverse too with a phenolic joint with a SS sleeve inside and see how it plays...

So I believe we could therefore conclude that "hit" is a subjective thing, personal preference, interpretation etc.

 

[Cue Crazy]

That's a great looking cue Greg.

Thanks Mike, Still needs some work. the turq inlays are glued up but still need trimmed. I usually play with linen, and have been wanting to try the leather, so probably going with the wrap that's mocked up on there. It sure does feel nice on the cue. I know you do a nice leather wrap, so afraid You'll probably here from me when I get ready to put It on . I think I pretty much know how to do It though, Mark was good enough to give me some advice on it a while ago, and I wrote It down, so I would'nt forget. He seems like good people too.

Greg

 

[Cue Crazy]

Ey Greg buddy... nice one there... you've been hiding out from me dude LOL
I've got those sleeve SS joints but havent touched them for the past 2 years... they're around 0.750 ID but I won't put a 3/4 wood tenon on that. Prolly with a phenolic sleeve... then prolly in reverse too with a phenolic joint with a SS sleeve inside and see how it plays...

So I believe we could therefore conclude that "hit" is a subjective thing, personal preference, interpretation etc.

Thanks Hadj,

Nah, not holding out on you big dog , That's the same sleeve on there that you saw already. decided not to inlay It after all, I like the natural look of it, and had a hard time bringing Myself to break it up with inlays. That's what I meant by conversion, the forearm is not mine. I am setting up to do some billet, then I am going to try setting up to do a few veneer forearms myself. wish me luck. the forearms, are supposed to of been made in the eighties, and the straight grain 4 point, steel joint cues from that era are what I've mostly shot with over the years. I have 6 of them to try to get the joint right in to suite My style. I should get something I like By then.

I aggree on the phenolic, Probably try it a few ways, to see which feels best to me.

Yep I aggree, I think everyone has a different stroke arsonal & feel, It's like comparing apples and oranges. there is no correct answer, and not worthy of any debate. just different strokes for d. folks, therefore looked at from different perceptions. the only thing I am trying to figure out is how to get something in the middle, because they each make up for the other style's weakness to me, but they both lack some things to me. The softer hit is safer to me, but that steel joint is what allows me to make the shots that get you out of trouble. I know players that are the opposite, so It is subjective. I just want something in the middle, That should be universal IMO.

Remember this one here? I did'nt like how the billet thicknesses did'nt match on the rings, since I used the same piece of billet on them both, therefore did not touch the thing until recently, when I wanted to try the inlayed points out, so figured It was a good subject for an experiement . The points are glued up but need trimmed. Trying to decide if I am going to put inlay in the butt section before trimming the points. Then I'll put the turq. inlay in.

Greg

 

[hadjcues]

Yeah I remember that first cue of yours...I like the coco points over tha 2nd pic (ebony?)or is it just the lighting?

 

[Cue Crazy]

Yeah I remember that first cue of yours...I like the coco points over tha 2nd pic (ebony?)or is it just the lighting?

Just the lighting & glue on them. they are coco also. They will lighten up when I trim.

 

[Penrose Cues]

I hear what you and Sheldon are saying, I still disagree. There is a difference
in hit and a difference in deflection, I just wouldn't say it deadens the hit. It's to subjective to personal choice.

I would have to agree with Mike...

The energy of the hit, when you hit the ball, is not transferred to the butt of a cue when using a SS joint (not the wood to wood joints).
That makes quality of the butt totally unnecessary. The hit of such a cue (there's always an exeption of course) depends entirely on the quality of the shaft...
The Searings and Boti's are nice examples of great hitting cues with SS joints because of the quality of their shafts.

When you use phenolic, ivory or wooden joints, the energy is transferred to the butt of the cue and its quality will influence the cue action... But then, the quality of the woods, inlays and number of points influence the hit aswell.

The only problem is that there are many crappy made butts with SS joints wich sell faster than food, because the makers are not dependant on the quality of the woods, ringworks and inlays... Such (production) cues can therefore be sold for almost no money and kill the market of the custom cue.

When I'm asked to give my opinion on the quality of "a cue", I prefer taking a cue with a natural/phenolic joint. That's the only way to give a true opinion about the quality of the cue. Not just the shaft...
The old house cue is an example of a great hitting cue because of the way it transfers and reverts the energy produced by the hit of the cue ball.

Conclusion: The quality of the hit of a cue depends not only on the joint, but on the total construction of it.

Tom Penrose