stiffer cues or whipper cues cause less deflection?

pixie

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
sorry guys, noob question.

i've tried a SW and a meucci, 2 ends of the spectrum in terms of stiffness and whippiness. i felt the SW had very low deflection and it was re-confirmed by a very reliable friend dealing and cue repairs. yet, meuccis are so whippy with the claim of less deflection and bla bla.

which is the truth?

pix.
 
Deflection of the cueball is caused mainly by the endmass of the shaft. The ligher the last 6" of the shaft is, the less the ball will squirt. This has a MUCH greater effect than how stiff the shaft is.
 
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Do you mean the lighter the end mass of the shaft, the more it will deflect, causing less deflection of the cueball? It seems there are a lot of opinions and people use words interchangeably, but isn't a low deflection shaft a shaft that causes less deflection (squirt) of the cue ball, but the shaft itself really deflects more on an off center hit?
Kelly
 
Meucci's claim to have less OBJECT ball deflection whereas a cue like predator has less CUE ball deflection. Its up to you which one you want less of. Does that make sense?
 
Kelly_Guy said:
Do you mean the lighter the end mass of the shaft, the more it will deflect, causing less deflection of the cueball?
Kelly

Yep. Shaft deflection (sometimes called "squirt") is inverted to cueball deflection. More shaft deflection -> less cueball deflection.
 
Sharkeyes said:
Meucci's claim to have less OBJECT ball deflection whereas a cue like predator has less CUE ball deflection. Its up to you which one you want less of. Does that make sense?

What is object ball deflection ?
 
How stiff a shaft "hits" depends also on where the flex point is, that and how heavy the front end is will determine how long and where the shaft vibrates. If the shaft flexes in the backbone area then it will vibrate for a long time or seem "whippy", but if it flexes in the front then it will vibrate less or seem "stiff".

And the front end mass is like having a weight at the end of a diving board. If you push it one way with no weight on it then it will return to it's origina position faster meaning it vibrates less or seems "stiff". But if you have a weight at the end of it the board will bounce up and down for a long time, seeming "whippy".

Does any of this make sense? I am not very good at explaining things, I apologize.
 
stiffness

pixie said:
sorry guys, noob question.

i've tried a SW and a meucci, 2 ends of the spectrum in terms of stiffness and whippiness. i felt the SW had very low deflection and it was re-confirmed by a very reliable friend dealing and cue repairs. yet, meuccis are so whippy with the claim of less deflection and bla bla.

which is the truth?

pix.
Not only does the shaft size, taper, length of the taper,come into play, so does the dia. of the joint. The larger the dia. the stiffer the hit.Differant materials make up for some of the stiffness, or whippiness, including the balance of the cue or cues in question.
blud
 
The true test for cue ball deflection or squirt or what ever you want to call it is by using a tip or so of english and see how far off the cue ball hits from where you are aiming. This is how the Robot tests are done. Softer ferrules usually send the cue ball less off center from where you are aiming. But be aware that different tips and different shaft tapers also make a difference. But I feel it is not as important of an issue as some make it. As a Robot can't feel the shot. Humans shoot with feel. If it does not feel right to you then you will not play good with it. And believe me everyone like different feels. This is why so many of us can build and sell cues. If I like it then someone else will too. But not everyone will. I have been told my cues are too stiff, Not stiff enough, hit too hard, hit too soft, too much action, not enough action, etc.. But I have also been told my cues hit just right. And those people are my repeat customers and those people sell more cues for me than my website ever will. Just try some various cues and see which you play the best with and like the feel of.
Chris
www.cuesmith.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
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That's very true.

I believe an easy way to look at It is also in the stroke when the squirt is gauged that way. Most people know a more consistent stroke is more efficient, and I believe the reason is because the amount of squirt is easier to gauge, and make ajustments for aiming using a simular stroke, speed & stall when needed. If You switch the stroke, stall & speed up then the amount of squirt can be different. usually the brain automatically ajusts for this after years of play, and there are manys ways to manipulate them like say some power players do, but still seems that many people read deflection differently, therefore making it more of a personal preference. I know people that will flat out smoke check alot of people with those so call wippy shafts, but on the other hand I know some that can't stand them. If someone has an inconsistent stall in there stroke even, It will cause so many problems, and they will be blaming everything else except what's really going on. I've been there, and It still happens to me ocasionally. Really does'nt matter what you are shooting with when that happens.

I know some do like the stiff hit, but have found few that like them as stiff as me. The hit I like sounds like a 2x4 being dropped on end, into a concrete floor. Most people say it sounds like It's miscueing because of that, and the hard tips I use, but It is a much better type hit to suit My feel. It's definatly not for everyone though.
Many things play a factor in this-where on the shaft you bridge most often is one, the type of stroke a person has also, because a shaft with some give, can make up for inconsistent areas in a stroke it seems like. The list goes on.

I started building cues as a hobby and side thing to repair, but We sell other make cues also. I believe the best way for someone to know what they like is to try, so unlike some dealers we actually started to let people hit a few balls with a make of cue they are interested in. We use to sit on cues for a while before selling them, but since we started doing this We sell more then before, and from what I see everyone is different. That's what I believe is the point when someones says to purchase the cuemaker, not the cue. His hit is usually signature, not for everyone, but he has his share that do like it. Feel, the amount of deflection, and hit are all part of that IMHO.
 
Aiming Vs Cue Ball Deflection

Cue Crazy said:
That's very true.

I believe an easy way to look at It is also in the stroke when the squirt is gauged that way. Most people know a more consistent stroke is more efficient, and I believe the reason is because the amount of squirt is easier to gauge, and make ajustments for aiming using a simular stroke, speed & stall when needed. If You switch the stroke, stall & speed up then the amount of squirt can be different. usually the brain automatically ajusts for this after years of play, and there are manys ways to manipulate them like say some power players do, but still seems that many people read deflection differently, therefore making it more of a personal preference. I know people that will flat out smoke check alot of people with those so call wippy shafts, but on the other hand I know some that can't stand them. If someone has an inconsistent stall in there stroke even, It will cause so many problems, and they will be blaming everything else except what's really going on. I've been there, and It still happens to me ocasionally. Really does'nt matter what you are shooting with when that happens.

I know some do like the stiff hit, but have found few that like them as stiff as me. The hit I like sounds like a 2x4 being dropped on end, into a concrete floor. Most people say it sounds like It's miscueing because of that, and the hard tips I use, but It is a much better type hit to suit My feel. It's definatly not for everyone though.
Many things play a factor in this-where on the shaft you bridge most often is one, the type of stroke a person has also, because a shaft with some give, can make up for inconsistent areas in a stroke it seems like. The list goes on.

I started building cues as a hobby and side thing to repair, but We sell other make cues also. I believe the best way for someone to know what they like is to try, so unlike some dealers we actually started to let people hit a few balls with a make of cue they are interested in. We use to sit on cues for a while before selling them, but since we started doing this We sell more then before, and from what I see everyone is different. That's what I believe is the point when someones says to purchase the cuemaker, not the cue. His hit is usually signature, not for everyone, but he has his share that do like it. Feel, the amount of deflection, and hit are all part of that IMHO.

CUE BALL DEFLECTION CAN BE ELIMINATED BY USING BACK-HAND ENGLISH.
 
Probably the best article I've seen on "squirt", if you understand, or get by, the math is this one:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/shepard_squirt.pdf


Here are the answers he comes up with after all the math and experiments:

"Summary: With the detailed discussion given above for squirt, several of the questions posed in the beginning can be answered.

• How can squirt be minimized? By reducing the tip offset or by using a cue stick with a small endmass.

• Does shaft flexibility affect squirt? No, not directly. Shaft flexibility may affect the endmass and thereby affect squirt indirectly, but this is probably a relatively minor effect. This means that the player is able to choose a cue with a desired amount of shaft flexibility for other reasons, without having to compromise the squirt characteristics.

• Does tip curvature affect squirt? No, not according to the above analysis, except for the fact that the tip curvature affects the actual tip offset for a given shaft offset. However, there are data at the Predator web site that suggests that a rounder tip (i.e. a dime radius compared to the larger nickel radius) reduces squirt.

• Does squirt depend on shot speed? No, not directly. Shot speed might affect the endmass, but this is probably a relatively minor effect. The observation that different aiming is required for different shot speeds, particularly on longer shots, is probably due to cue ball swerve, not to squirt.

• Does squirt depend on the cue stick weight? Yes, but only when it affects the endmass. Weight added more than about 10″ away from the tip apparently has little effect. This means that the player is free to choose stick weight for other reasons without compromising squirt characteristics.

• Does squirt depend on the stick balance point? Yes, according to the rigid cone approximation, but only because it has a small effect on the endmass.

• Do ivory or brass ferrules have more squirt than synthetic materials? If so, it is primarily because of the density of the material and the resulting effect on the 18 endmass. It appears unlikely that the hardness or other physical characteristics affect directly the squirt. However, a thick brass ferrule will probably have more squirt than a thin brass ferrule. Also, some ferrules are attached to the shaft with a metal screw or stud; these cues probably have larger squirt than an otherwise equivalent cue with a standard wood tenon.

• Does the tip diameter affect squirt? Yes, because smaller tips will have smaller endmass, all other things being equal. This trend is predicted by the rigid cone model. However, there are other ways to reduce endmass than by using a small tip diameter, such as the approach used by the Predator design.

• Does tip hardness affect squirt? No, not according to the above analysis. This also suggests that the tip-ball contact time, which is related to tip hardness, does not directly affect squirt, but this has not been proven independently, and it is possible that contact time does play at least a minor role in determining the effective endmass through speed-of-sound mechanisms. To the extent that tip hardness is independent of squirt, this means that the player is free to choose tip hardness based on personal preference without compromising the squirt characteristics.

• Is squirt caused by the tip slipping on the ball? No, squirt occurs even when the tip does not slip. The tip does not slip on normal shots.

• Are there any stroke techniques that can be used to minimize squirt? No, not unless the technique somehow reduces the tip offset, in which case the same shot could have been achieved simply by stroking normally and using the smaller tip offset in the first place.

• Is it better to use an open bridge than a closed bridge? It is possible that a tight closed bridge might increase the effective endmass, and thereby increase squirt, but this is probably a very minor effect.

• For a given cue stick, will snooker balls squirt more than pool balls, and will carom balls squirt less? There are two separate effects, mass and ball diameter. Due to the ball/tip mass ratio, the lighter snooker balls will tend to squirt more than pool balls, and the heavier carom balls will tend to squirt less. Futhermore, the stick pivot point depends on the ball radius, so, for a given relative tip offset and ball/tip mass ratio, the larger balls will tend to have longer stick pivot points.

• If I use a low-squirt cue, must I suffer from excessive or sensitive sidespin? All other things being equal, high-squirt cues will appear to get slightly less spin (and speed) than a low-squirt cue for a given tip offset, but this is a very minor effect, smaller, for example, than the differences in tip curvature between two tips might affect the amount of sidespin.

• Does the amount of shaft bend, buckle, or vibration affect squirt? No, the shaft is set into motion as the tip strikes the ball, but the actual bending and/or buckling occurs after the short tip-ball contact time. If the ball has already separated from the tip before the bending occurs, then the bending and buckling can have no effect on the ball.

• Must I trust the advertising of the cue makers to tell me how much squirt a stick will have? No, the aim-and-pivot squirt test is a reliable way to determine squirt, it requires no special equipment, and with a little practice, it can be performed by anyone with a reasonably straight stroke.

• What is the optimal squirt characteristics for a break cue? The stick pivot point should be at the bridge length. For most players, this will be typically in the 14″ to 16″ range.

With these answers in mind, there are still many details that are not understood at present regarding squirt. A more detailed understanding of endmass appears to be the most important. How exactly does the mass distribution along the shaft contribute to the observed effective endmass? And even if a complete and correct understanding of endmass and squirt were known, there would be still the subjective challenge of choosing a cue stick with the optimal amount of squirt for each player.

Postscript: This document is a first step at collecting together information and ideas related to squirt, it is not the final answer to this interesting and practically important topic. This document will evolve in the future in order to report and describe new developments, new explanations, and new squirt data. Comments and corrections should be sent to the author at email://shepard@tcg.anl.gov."
 
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pixie said:
meuccis are so whippy with the claim of less deflection and bla bla.

pix.


How "whippy" are they? Like a rubber hose? To the point that you can't control any shot? You must know something that I don't.

They also have a "squiggly ferrule" on them just like the new Universal shaft to alter the deflection problem.

Btw...how much deflection do you get on the red dot and black dot that you can't make a ball?

How in the hell did Jim Rempe and Loree Jon Jones ever get in the Hall of Fame using rubber hoses? :rolleyes:
 
drivermaker said:
How "whippy" are they? Like a rubber hose? To the point that you can't control any shot? You must know something that I don't.

They also have a "squiggly ferrule" on them just like the new Universal shaft to alter the deflection problem.

Btw...how much deflection do you get on the red dot and black dot that you can't make a ball?

How in the hell did Jim Rempe and Loree Jon Jones ever get in the Hall of Fame using rubber hoses? :rolleyes:

Actually many players like the way Meuccis look and the way they play. Most of these people are bar box players, playing on slow cloth and having little or no stroke and a desire to impress their friends with their drawing ability. Meuccis are good for loading up the juice. Many pros used meuccis in the 70s and 80s when slow Mali cloth is what was on most tournament tables. Today, with most tournaments using Simonis or another worsted cloth the need for a lot of spin to get the cue-ball to move around is no longer needed, instead, precise cue-ball control is needed to compete. You would be hard pressed finding a Pro, who wants to finish in the money, using a Meucci now a days.
Dick
 
rhncue said:
Today, with most tournaments using Simonis or another worsted cloth the need for a lot of spin to get the cue-ball to move around is no longer needed, instead, precise cue-ball control is needed to compete. You would be hard pressed finding a Pro, who wants to finish in the money, using a Meucci now a days.
Dick


Are you saying you can't get cue-ball control just by hitting it easier and using minimal english? That's all I ever thought it would take.

I'll bet there would be a hell of a lot of players using a Meucci if he doled them out for free or paid an endorsement fee for using one.

Besides, the pendulum is always swinging back and forth and it's not just on pool cues. What's hot one year...is out the next.
 
drivermaker said:
Are you saying you can't get cue-ball control just by hitting it easier and using minimal english? That's all I ever thought it would take.

I'll bet there would be a hell of a lot of players using a Meucci if he doled them out for free or paid an endorsement fee for using one.

Besides, the pendulum is always swinging back and forth and it's not just on pool cues. What's hot one year...is out the next.
DM,

So what you are say is that 'Ole Bob can't even give them away? :p :D
And even now you admit that he is hard pressed to find anyone to play with one getting money to boot :p :D

It's about time you came to your senses :p

Jon :D :cool: :D
 
Jon said:
DM,

So what you are say is that 'Ole Bob can't even give them away? :p :D
And even now you admit that he is hard pressed to find anyone to play with one getting money to boot :p :D

It's about time you came to your senses :p

Jon :D :cool: :D


What I'm saying is 'Ole Bob treated a lot of players real good years ago, much moreso over the course of 3 different decades than any cue maker when it came time to giving out equipment and paying endorsements. What good did it do him or anybody that does it now? Does it result in more sales? Would you buy a CueTec because Earl plays one? How about a Falcon because Karen plays one? Maybe a Mezz because Mika plays one?

The guy is in his 70's and has grossed more in sales than probably ANY cuemaker out there since he started making cues. Tell me who has more in gross sales? Have you come to YOUR senses yet??? Why does he need to bust his ass at this stage of his life. Hell, you don't bust yours and you're barely out of your teens.

Btw...here's a few questions for you or anyone else that wants to chime in?
Which shaft on a Meucci is more rigid...the red dot or the laminated black dot and why do you think that's the case?

Which shaft would be more rigid...one weighing between 3.6 oz. -3.95 oz.;
4.00 oz. - 4.29 oz.; or 4.3 oz. - 4.8 oz., and why?

How do YOU or anyone else on here measure for rigidity and flex? Do you have modern equipment to do it...do you do a bend on the table or whack job for vibrations...hit a ball and warp speed and watch the bend in the shaft by eyeball...or just go by what everyone else says?
 
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