Table Information Requested - early 1900's Susser Brothers 10'x5'

O

orion21

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just wondering if anyone could shed some more light on what may be the history of this table. This belonged to my Uncle Bill, who is no longer with us.

The nameplate was clearly replaced with a smaller one than original, and the older plate was filled with rail wood.

According to my cousin, the ball return was added later and the table originally had drop pockets.

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orion21 said:
Just wondering if anyone could shed some more light on what may be the history of this table. This belonged to my Uncle Bill, who is no longer with us.

The nameplate was clearly replaced with a smaller one than original, and the older plate was filled with rail wood.

According to my cousin, the ball return was added later and the table originally had drop pockets.

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I used to have one when I was a kid but mine said Susser and Grimaldi Bowery New York.
It probably is a t-rail table with slates about 2 inches thick. The problem is they don't usually play very good while they're interesting to own it isn't the greatest table you'd want to play on.


I bet the ball return is wooden troughs that moved to the middle of the table underneath and then divert to the ball box. When I was about 6 years old I could never figure out why when I drop the balls in the pocket 1 2 they came out in the box 2 1. It's was cuz they changed directions under the table.
 
middleofnowhere said:
I used to have one when I was a kid but mine said Susser and Grimaldi Bowery New York.
It probably is a t-rail table with slates about 2 inches thick. The problem is they don't usually play very good while they're interesting to own it isn't the greatest table you'd want to play on.


I bet the ball return is wooden troughs that moved to the middle of the table underneath and then divert to the ball box. When I was about 6 years old I could never figure out why when I drop the balls in the pocket 1 2 they came out in the box 2 1. It's was cuz they changed directions under the table.
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Right - so I recall being told that they kicked Grimaldi out of the business, so i think this was made during that time and the nameplate had to be replaced. Yes the ball return is wooden channels that funnel to the center and then down, seemed to work ok. The rails were replaced about 10 years ago and it seemed to play decent. Large pockets, but for 10' x 5' that's fine with me.

I also know its 3 piece, that has countersunk bolts right into the top of the slate. In it's current state there is 1 that is loose and can be felt thru the cloth. For the life of me i couldnt find the seams by hand so whoever covered it last (10 years ago) did a good job.
 
Brunswick actually built the tables. Susser put their name on them. This was a very common practice in the day. Dealers all over the country sold what amounted to 'private label' B'wicks. Nice table.
 
I find that cue case even more interesting than the table- can you please show us what is inside the case? Is the case leather? I might be an interested buyer if the case is for sale?
 
I have one very similar to that table... The slates & rails were lost by a Realty Company. In a few weeks, it will become a beautiful 6 leg 8 foot Table. Pictures to follow...
 
garczar said:
Brunswick actually built the tables. Susser put their name on them. This was a very common practice in the day. Dealers all over the country sold what amounted to 'private label' B'wicks. Nice table.
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Your right. Most tables made back then we're actually Brunswick. I have a 9 foot Saunier Wilhem from around the 40's in one house.

I was told it is actually a Brunswick. It plays like sh!t. Those old T- rail table are not really worth having. They are more for decoration then serious play.
My other table is a Gold Crown.
 
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mikemosconi said:
I find that cue case even more interesting than the table- can you please show us what is inside the case? Is the case leather? I might be an interested buyer if the case is for sale?
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Its just an old Helmstetter 86-15, 2 shafts. I know my cousins have no plans of ever getting rid of the cue (even tho in later years he played with a willie hoppe - that has since disappeared ).

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mikemosconi said:
I find that cue case even more interesting than the table- can you please show us what is inside the case? Is the case leather? I might be an interested buyer if the case is for sale?
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Exactly what I was going to post (y)
Nice case.

The table would be great looking in better shape, now it's a bit in the middle, neither clean for a living room setup, nor a great setup for a players table.
 
Nice older cue and case- well seasoned shafts , looks like someone was a bit of a decent player based on the way those shafts are seasoned and the cue tips are trimmed up properly :) Two shafts with older cues usually denote a player, esp when both shafts have that patina and proper cue tip trim.
 
Ferrules look terrible. Did he use 200grit on them? ;)
mikemosconi said:
Nice older cue and case- well seasoned shafts , looks like someone was a bit of a decent player based on the way those shafts are seasoned and the cue tips are trimmed up properly :) Two shafts with older cues usually denote a player, esp when both shafts have that patina and proper cue tip trim.
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Quality T-rails tables can be set up to play as well as any & the rails can be as solid.
Witness snooker tables, e.g.
The difference is that T-rails can be more difficult to set up well.

Consider how the rail bolts into the edge of the slate - there is no leeway to adjust 2 adjacent rails along the side to be perfectly aligned, if the wood in the rails has compressed differently, the rubber is slightly different, or the original machining of slate & rail was a little varied. To change anything requires either careful selective (hand) planing the rail mating surface, or shims. Of course if shims are involved, some of the rigidity can change. etc.

OTOH if everything is perfect or close enough to it, the T-rail system locks that in without any further adjustment.

Nonetheless, for modern systems bolting through the face of the slate allows a bit of adjustment for alignment. If the rail bolts remain torqued (not always a given, either) the rails will stay in alignment and remain sufficiently rigid.

Based on geometry, for 1" T-rail slate, a ball strike to the rail has less leverage to react the bending force since the fulcrum (the bolt) is lower and there is less behind (below) it for reaction. A "modern" face bolted rail has some advantage, again, if the bolts remain in torque. But the modern rail is still bolted through a slightly giving element, the cloth. (as is T-rail, though less so, at the edge) I wonder if the old 1-1/2" T-rail slates might have an overall advantage, ignoring the niceties/details of setting up?

Practically, given time & insight, it seems that most quality tables that are not deteriorated can be set up to play as well as most any other.

Garczar - thanks for that great link!

smt
 
Ssonerai said:
Quality T-rails tables can be set up to play as well as any & the rails can be as solid.
Witness snooker tables, e.g.
The difference is that T-rails can be more difficult to set up well.

Consider how the rail bolts into the edge of the slate - there is no leeway to adjust 2 adjacent rails along the side to be perfectly aligned, if the wood in the rails has compressed differently, the rubber is slightly different, or the original machining of slate & rail was a little varied. To change anything requires either careful selective (hand) planing the rail mating surface, or shims. Of course if shims are involved, some of the rigidity can change. etc.

OTOH if everything is perfect or close enough to it, the T-rail system locks that in without any further adjustment.

Nonetheless, for modern systems bolting through the face of the slate allows a bit of adjustment for alignment. If the rail bolts remain torqued (not always a given, either) the rails will stay in alignment and remain sufficiently rigid.

Based on geometry, for 1" T-rail slate, a ball strike to the rail has less leverage to react the bending force since the fulcrum (the bolt) is lower and there is less behind (below) it for reaction. A "modern" face bolted rail has some advantage, again, if the bolts remain in torque. But the modern rail is still bolted through a slightly giving element, the cloth. (as is T-rail, though less so, at the edge) I wonder if the old 1-1/2" T-rail slates might have an overall advantage, ignoring the niceties/details of setting up?

Practically, given time & insight, it seems that most quality tables that are not deteriorated can be set up to play as well as most any other.

Garczar - thanks for that great link!

smt
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You know that may be true but even at its best you still end up with an inferior table. I have two of these T-rail tables one of them set up and no matter what you do the rails all seem to bounce differently and I've had good mechanics work on the one table that's set up.

It's also true that there are some European companies that build billiard tables that are T-rail design but if you see one apart it's got at the least twice as many bolts as one of these old pool tables. Each of mine only have three bolts on each of the six rail pieces. It's pretty much nothing you can do that ever makes them like a solid unit on the table and all playing the same.

They're just an interesting collectible and if you're not really a pool player and you want a conversation piece go ahead and put one in your house. However, I feel like some of the people you see on here who spend thousands of dollars creating a space for their new table and hundreds of hours in personal labor the last thing you want is an inferior table to top off the project.

There's lots of things in this world that over time outlive their usefulness. Things get improved and are just better. I live in a house it's been in my family since the 1940s and I'll be moving out in a few months and it's going to be sold to a developer and torn down.

While people might knock on my door from time to time and want a tour of the property and think it's something great by all modern standards it's a dump.

It's funny as I've gotten older unlike like a lot I don't look back on the past is the good old days. I've developed a real love for technology and new things. I do like old classic cars though.
 
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