I would like to know if anybody knows the history of the table saw turning machine?Who was the creator?
table saw turning machine
- Thread starter Canadian cue
- Start date
I've seen a diagram by David Kershenbrock.Canadian cue said:
I don't know if he's the first.
Blud here should know. He's the only one I know who makes and sells them.
Great machines from what I've heard.
saw
Yes David did develope the saw your speaking of. Years ago in a shipyard in the Houston area, there was a simular divice that was built to turn cut mast of sail-boats. It had a very big blade and turned the wooden mast very slow.
It only made straight rough cuts.
I designed and build several models of saw/lathes, along with all machinery for building and inlaying cues..
The saws, that are made simular to David's I do not agree with. They leave the jig and cue over hanging in mid-air at the end of it's stroke. My machine supprots the jig, shaft and or butt for the intire lenght. No over hang.
Mine cuts very smooth. I also have a new CNC verision that has 4 blades turn cutting 4 at a time,and cuts even smoother than the other one. It cost a little more because it's full blown CNC. No limit to shapes for shafts and or butts.
if your interested, call me or e-mail me at
830-232-5991
bludworth@direcway.com
thanks
blud
Joseph Cues said:
Yes David did develope the saw your speaking of. Years ago in a shipyard in the Houston area, there was a simular divice that was built to turn cut mast of sail-boats. It had a very big blade and turned the wooden mast very slow.
It only made straight rough cuts.
I designed and build several models of saw/lathes, along with all machinery for building and inlaying cues..
The saws, that are made simular to David's I do not agree with. They leave the jig and cue over hanging in mid-air at the end of it's stroke. My machine supprots the jig, shaft and or butt for the intire lenght. No over hang.
Mine cuts very smooth. I also have a new CNC verision that has 4 blades turn cutting 4 at a time,and cuts even smoother than the other one. It cost a little more because it's full blown CNC. No limit to shapes for shafts and or butts.
if your interested, call me or e-mail me at
830-232-5991
bludworth@direcway.com
thanks
blud
Thanks for the history lesson Blud,Now can you tell me the pros and cons vs lathe and router.My main motives for switching is noise and the thought of having a dedicated machine definitly has it's advantages.My only concern is if you can still keep tight tolerances.If anybody else has some feed back that would be appreciated as well.
router
The router is the way most guys turn cut cues. They user this method until they up-grade to a real smooth cutting saw/lathe.
The router makes plenty of noise, my machine runs pretty quite and produces a better cut. The bigger the blade, the faster the tip speed is. A small cutter turns many times and will sometimes give you tool push-off without you even knowing it. [Dwell marks on the surface].
With my 10" saw or the 7-1/4" saw blades, I get real smooth cuts per 30" of wood. This alone, produces a smooth finish.At 3450RPM's, and 30" and taking up to 7 minutes, your get smooth results.
blud
Canadian cue said:
The router is the way most guys turn cut cues. They user this method until they up-grade to a real smooth cutting saw/lathe.
The router makes plenty of noise, my machine runs pretty quite and produces a better cut. The bigger the blade, the faster the tip speed is. A small cutter turns many times and will sometimes give you tool push-off without you even knowing it. [Dwell marks on the surface].
With my 10" saw or the 7-1/4" saw blades, I get real smooth cuts per 30" of wood. This alone, produces a smooth finish.At 3450RPM's, and 30" and taking up to 7 minutes, your get smooth results.
blud
Canadian cue said:
I built one back in 94 or 95 and still use it today. The tolerances are as good as a lathe. I mounted a cross-slide vertically so I could dial in 1/1000ths of an inch to control the depth of cut. Mine is mounted on a Delta table saw. I had another one built made out of Steel and a blade spinning on a motor. That one has given trouble and is now just taking up space. The motor takes about a minute to stop spinning with a 10" blade on it. Whereas the belt driven table saw stops spinning in a few seconds. I like it better than the other machine. I may eventually fix the other machine and either use it or sell it, but for now I turn all shafts on the table saw machine and all butts with a router tapering machine I built also. The router machine is loud so I keep it in another room and that also keeps the exotic wood dust out of the main shop. I have cut off switches on both, so I just load them and leave them. David's book has drawings on how to build the tapering machine. I modified his design for my first machine and have drawings of my version in the Cue Building Book I wrote. Hope my ramblings have been a little help. Best advice is which ever machine you use try to get the butt turning machine away from the main shop area so you don't breath those toxic dusts. The main advantage with the saw machine is the noise factor. Somebody said there are some really quiet German routers. If any body knows where to get one I would like to try one.
saw/lathe
I have a saw that is very, very quite. There are several advantages to a saw/lathe that I build over david's machine. [not sure about Chris's].
1.- mine is very stable.
2.- It cuts much much smoother than any roter i have ever seen. [no question in my mind].
3.- No need to have it in another room for the toxic dust as Chris says. no need at all. When building cues, just consider all woods to be bad for your health. Have the proper venelation, proper dust collector and your in good shape.
4.-My machine can turn cut two shafts at the same time and can be differant in sizes while cutting, [ ref, 14mm on one, and 13 on the other or what ever], also you can cut a shaft on one side and a butt on the other side at the same time if you want.
5.- My table saw/model is full length, 72" long X 30" wide. The regular table saw machine has a "CAM ROLLER BEARING"attached to the table to hold down the fizture when it's at full length. No good. This puts a load on the roller and the fixture. Mine slides with support under it the entire length. Table saws do not.
My Machinery is perfect. Not bragging, just stating facts. All my machines are within two/tenth's of thousants...Bet something.....CNC mills or saws..
I also build several differant models of saw/lathes, a CNC saw that will turn 2 of whatever, and up too 4 shafts or butts at the same time. I have very close tolorances with my machibes. All stations, 2 or 4 , will cut all the shafts the same size, or butts done the same. None i have ever seen or even heard of will come close to mine when it comes to finish cuts and sizing all the shafts or butts come out the same size. NONE.....
blud
cueman said:
I have a saw that is very, very quite. There are several advantages to a saw/lathe that I build over david's machine. [not sure about Chris's].
1.- mine is very stable.
2.- It cuts much much smoother than any roter i have ever seen. [no question in my mind].
3.- No need to have it in another room for the toxic dust as Chris says. no need at all. When building cues, just consider all woods to be bad for your health. Have the proper venelation, proper dust collector and your in good shape.
4.-My machine can turn cut two shafts at the same time and can be differant in sizes while cutting, [ ref, 14mm on one, and 13 on the other or what ever], also you can cut a shaft on one side and a butt on the other side at the same time if you want.
5.- My table saw/model is full length, 72" long X 30" wide. The regular table saw machine has a "CAM ROLLER BEARING"attached to the table to hold down the fizture when it's at full length. No good. This puts a load on the roller and the fixture. Mine slides with support under it the entire length. Table saws do not.
My Machinery is perfect. Not bragging, just stating facts. All my machines are within two/tenth's of thousants...Bet something.....CNC mills or saws..
I also build several differant models of saw/lathes, a CNC saw that will turn 2 of whatever, and up too 4 shafts or butts at the same time. I have very close tolorances with my machibes. All stations, 2 or 4 , will cut all the shafts the same size, or butts done the same. None i have ever seen or even heard of will come close to mine when it comes to finish cuts and sizing all the shafts or butts come out the same size. NONE.....
blud
tablesaw lathe
Cueman, Blud and Joseph cues,thank you for the info much appreciated.I have not decided whether to buy or build or just stick to how I'm doing it now in any case I am in no hurry.Cueman if you don't mind me asking why don't you use the saw for tapering butts? Just curious.
Cueman, Blud and Joseph cues,thank you for the info much appreciated.I have not decided whether to buy or build or just stick to how I'm doing it now in any case I am in no hurry.Cueman if you don't mind me asking why don't you use the saw for tapering butts? Just curious.
Canadian cue said:
I find it faster to work with mutiple machines. I have one set up for cutting shafts and the other for cutting butts. I make shaft blanks for customers so I keep my saw machine running almost continuously cutting shafts and don't want to have to change bars to cut butts. The other machine stays set up ready to cut butt wood and since I cut less butt wood I keep the saw machine going on shafts. Both do a good job on both, but the noise factor is the main reason I like the saw machine.
saw/lathe
SHAFT AND BUTT TAPPERING MACHINERY!
With my machine, the two headed [mechanical one], you can leave set up with a shaft taper bar on one side and a butt taper bar on the other side. Never have to change taper bars. Like I said, it's not a retro-fitted table saw.
It's designed for turn cutting shafts and butts of cues.....Dedicated machinery, that works perfectly, every time...[ I also build a CNC 2 or 4 headed saw/lathe ].
With my full length saw/lathe, you have support under the fixture at all times. With the table saw that Chris is speaking of, you do not have full support for the fixture at all times.
Table saw machines!
With the normal table saw, you have sag within your fixture,because of it's over hang, and a cam-roller-bearing, holding down on one end of the fixture and trying to keep it from having sag with it's excessive over hang.
[Kind of like walking out on a diving board, it sags with weight].
The fixture will sag, [ they will sag a few thousandts ], you also have un-needed pressure applied to the fixture, [via cam-roller-bearing holding up the end with no support] and table saw, and it's applying a strain on the fixture- drive motor, and the fixture it's self, and causing extra wear and tear on the entire machine. Like I said, RE-TRO , fitted machinery. Not the best way to go, and not near as stable as a full length bed under the work, with no strain on anything.
Even if your using an engine lathe for tapering, the router will not produce as clean of a cut, as my full length "bed", saw/lathe. It has two 10" saw/blades that turn at 3,450 RPM'S. Very smooth, and "NO", vibration at all. NONE.
For any kind of tapering, the saw/lathe I build has proven to be best.
Full support for the shaft and butt fixture, no noise to speak of, dust collector can be attached very easily, and it's cut is much smoother than what a router will produce.
My machine, takes up about the same amount of floor space as the re-tro-fitt table saw, considering that the table saw, and it's shaft and butt fixture extends out over the table saw, and is the same length over all.
My machine just has a strong foundation under it, for the full length of the work to be done, supporting it fully.
I, at one time used a dowel sander to clean up shafts and butts, after they were turn cut. Not any longer.Now with my saw/lathe, I have no need for the sander. They come off the machine very smooth. No need for machine sanding, just touch up sanding by hand, before paint is applied.
Cost of machinery may be a factor to some from the start. However, consider this, no sanding [ labor = time and dollars], smoother cuts and fast production time over all. So a few dollars would off set these extra un-nessesary cost.
For quotes on any of my machinery, CNC MILLS, CNC Saw/lathes and or Mechanical saw/Lathes, please e-mail me at
bludworth.com
Canadian cue, I have sent you a private e-mail, with more information about my machinery.
blud
Canadian cue said:
SHAFT AND BUTT TAPPERING MACHINERY!
With my machine, the two headed [mechanical one], you can leave set up with a shaft taper bar on one side and a butt taper bar on the other side. Never have to change taper bars. Like I said, it's not a retro-fitted table saw.
It's designed for turn cutting shafts and butts of cues.....Dedicated machinery, that works perfectly, every time...[ I also build a CNC 2 or 4 headed saw/lathe ].
With my full length saw/lathe, you have support under the fixture at all times. With the table saw that Chris is speaking of, you do not have full support for the fixture at all times.
Table saw machines!
With the normal table saw, you have sag within your fixture,because of it's over hang, and a cam-roller-bearing, holding down on one end of the fixture and trying to keep it from having sag with it's excessive over hang.
[Kind of like walking out on a diving board, it sags with weight].
The fixture will sag, [ they will sag a few thousandts ], you also have un-needed pressure applied to the fixture, [via cam-roller-bearing holding up the end with no support] and table saw, and it's applying a strain on the fixture- drive motor, and the fixture it's self, and causing extra wear and tear on the entire machine. Like I said, RE-TRO , fitted machinery. Not the best way to go, and not near as stable as a full length bed under the work, with no strain on anything.
Even if your using an engine lathe for tapering, the router will not produce as clean of a cut, as my full length "bed", saw/lathe. It has two 10" saw/blades that turn at 3,450 RPM'S. Very smooth, and "NO", vibration at all. NONE.
For any kind of tapering, the saw/lathe I build has proven to be best.
Full support for the shaft and butt fixture, no noise to speak of, dust collector can be attached very easily, and it's cut is much smoother than what a router will produce.
My machine, takes up about the same amount of floor space as the re-tro-fitt table saw, considering that the table saw, and it's shaft and butt fixture extends out over the table saw, and is the same length over all.
My machine just has a strong foundation under it, for the full length of the work to be done, supporting it fully.
I, at one time used a dowel sander to clean up shafts and butts, after they were turn cut. Not any longer.Now with my saw/lathe, I have no need for the sander. They come off the machine very smooth. No need for machine sanding, just touch up sanding by hand, before paint is applied.
Cost of machinery may be a factor to some from the start. However, consider this, no sanding [ labor = time and dollars], smoother cuts and fast production time over all. So a few dollars would off set these extra un-nessesary cost.
For quotes on any of my machinery, CNC MILLS, CNC Saw/lathes and or Mechanical saw/Lathes, please e-mail me at
bludworth.com
Canadian cue, I have sent you a private e-mail, with more information about my machinery.
blud
http://www.ekstromcarlson.com/usedroutermotors.htm
Perske makes the quietest motors around but cost an arm and a leg.
Perske makes the quietest motors around but cost an arm and a leg.
Last edited:
noise and motors
Joey, I quite using Perske's years ago. Way to much noise. I use NSK's, no noise at all. They can rap up to 50,000RPM. and hang for hours at that speed. All they need is a little air, [about 18lbs] and they will run for ever. Had my, two 40kRPM's for 5 years now, no trouble, had my two 50kRPM's for 3 years, no trouble.
With the perske's you have more HP, but i don't need the HP, for cutting female and male parts. Years ago, i built machines that would cut parts, pockets, and turn cut shafts and butts on the same machine. For this I needed the hp. Now i have many saw/lathes for turn cutting. I know the perske's hurt my hearing. Perske's are about $2,000.00 rigged out each, with controler and motor, NSK's are about $3,450.00 each.The NSK's are soooo sweet. BTW, I'm also a NSK dealer...if your interested, give me a call for a quote.
blud
Joseph Cues said:
Joey, I quite using Perske's years ago. Way to much noise. I use NSK's, no noise at all. They can rap up to 50,000RPM. and hang for hours at that speed. All they need is a little air, [about 18lbs] and they will run for ever. Had my, two 40kRPM's for 5 years now, no trouble, had my two 50kRPM's for 3 years, no trouble.
With the perske's you have more HP, but i don't need the HP, for cutting female and male parts. Years ago, i built machines that would cut parts, pockets, and turn cut shafts and butts on the same machine. For this I needed the hp. Now i have many saw/lathes for turn cutting. I know the perske's hurt my hearing. Perske's are about $2,000.00 rigged out each, with controler and motor, NSK's are about $3,450.00 each.The NSK's are soooo sweet. BTW, I'm also a NSK dealer...if your interested, give me a call for a quote.
blud
Saw Machine
David told me many years ago, that he got the idea for the saw machine from an old (1950's era) "Popular Mechanics" magazine. They had a set-up for turning square stock to round using the saw. David saw the value of the concept and refined it to what it later became. I've been using a saw machine for 10 years and would never consider going back to a router. Not only is it much quieter, but it gives much better results. There are many more cuts per minute with the saw and due to the radius of the 12" blade, I use, each tooth is taking a very small amount of wood off. Tool pressure is negligable so chatter is non-existant. Incremental cuts, usually a month or two between passes, with a saw machine gives the best results possible, IMHO. I usually get 6 to 8 passes on a shaft to get it to final size.
Another trick I figured out many years ago which made a huge difference in my number of shaft rejects is to get the shaft centers relative to the wood grain. By this I mean, some shafts have a slight runout in the grain when you get them in 1" dowells. When I first center the dowels in preparation for turning, I examine the grain in the wood and sight down the shaft looking for any slight bends. Usually a bend is nearer one end of the shaft than the other. I use my dual chuck lathe with a center drill in the tail stock to bore the centers. The back chuck on the lathe keeps the workpiece aligned. If one end of the shaft appears straighter than the other, I put that end extended out of the front (main) chuck about 1/4" and bore it to where the center drill is down beyond the tapered portion leaving a center about 1/4" diameter tapering down to the size of the center drill tip. This will be the butt or big end of the shaft. I then reverse the shaft in the lathe extending the shaft out about 12 inches from the chuck. When I rotate the chuck, the shaft will have a wobble. I then use the center drill again to put in a shallow center (just the depth of the tip of the center drill) into the end of the shaft. This turning center will not be in the center of the end of the shaft, BUT, it will be the center of where the shaft "wants to be". By doing this, when you turn the shaft for the first time, you'll be taking more off of one side of the end of the shaft than the other, obviously, but that's better than taking a bunch out of one side of the shaft in the middle! This is kind of hard to put in words, but it follows the natural grain of the wood rather than trying to force the wood to go the direction you want. I noticed a dramatic decrease in shafts warping when I implemented this method! I also dip in Nelsonite for about 1 minute after every turning!
Hope this helps!
Sherm
--
just more hot air! 8^)
Sherm
aka "cuesmith" in yahoo
Sherm Custom Billiard Cues by,
Sherman Adamson
3352 Nine Mile Rd., Cincinnati Ohio 45255
Shop (513)553-2172, Cell (513)509-9152
http://www.shermcue.com Over 20 years experience
almost a decade in "The American Cuemakers Association"
Sending unsolicited commercial email (spam) to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.
David told me many years ago, that he got the idea for the saw machine from an old (1950's era) "Popular Mechanics" magazine. They had a set-up for turning square stock to round using the saw. David saw the value of the concept and refined it to what it later became. I've been using a saw machine for 10 years and would never consider going back to a router. Not only is it much quieter, but it gives much better results. There are many more cuts per minute with the saw and due to the radius of the 12" blade, I use, each tooth is taking a very small amount of wood off. Tool pressure is negligable so chatter is non-existant. Incremental cuts, usually a month or two between passes, with a saw machine gives the best results possible, IMHO. I usually get 6 to 8 passes on a shaft to get it to final size.
Another trick I figured out many years ago which made a huge difference in my number of shaft rejects is to get the shaft centers relative to the wood grain. By this I mean, some shafts have a slight runout in the grain when you get them in 1" dowells. When I first center the dowels in preparation for turning, I examine the grain in the wood and sight down the shaft looking for any slight bends. Usually a bend is nearer one end of the shaft than the other. I use my dual chuck lathe with a center drill in the tail stock to bore the centers. The back chuck on the lathe keeps the workpiece aligned. If one end of the shaft appears straighter than the other, I put that end extended out of the front (main) chuck about 1/4" and bore it to where the center drill is down beyond the tapered portion leaving a center about 1/4" diameter tapering down to the size of the center drill tip. This will be the butt or big end of the shaft. I then reverse the shaft in the lathe extending the shaft out about 12 inches from the chuck. When I rotate the chuck, the shaft will have a wobble. I then use the center drill again to put in a shallow center (just the depth of the tip of the center drill) into the end of the shaft. This turning center will not be in the center of the end of the shaft, BUT, it will be the center of where the shaft "wants to be". By doing this, when you turn the shaft for the first time, you'll be taking more off of one side of the end of the shaft than the other, obviously, but that's better than taking a bunch out of one side of the shaft in the middle! This is kind of hard to put in words, but it follows the natural grain of the wood rather than trying to force the wood to go the direction you want. I noticed a dramatic decrease in shafts warping when I implemented this method! I also dip in Nelsonite for about 1 minute after every turning!
Hope this helps!
Sherm
--
just more hot air! 8^)
Sherm
aka "cuesmith" in yahoo
Sherm Custom Billiard Cues by,
Sherman Adamson
3352 Nine Mile Rd., Cincinnati Ohio 45255
Shop (513)553-2172, Cell (513)509-9152
http://www.shermcue.com Over 20 years experience
almost a decade in "The American Cuemakers Association"
Sending unsolicited commercial email (spam) to this account incurs a fee of
$500 per message, and acknowledges the legality of this contract.
Mac, this one taken off Ted Harris's site without permission.
V
((VH))
Guest
What's the optimal saw blade diametr? I suppose a smaller blade cuts faster
the larger the better IMHO! The 12" blade I use works JAM-UP, but you need a special grind on the blade! I send mine to Chicago to have sharpened because everyone locally who's tried (even though they assured me it was NO PROBLEM) screwed them up. You need a 80 tooth wide kerf blade with a "FLAT TOOTH GRIND" no rake! At least this is what works best for me!
Sherm
Sherm
I don't think that faster is the main concern when cutting shafts, maybe you mean cleaner. The saw motor has a speed specification in rpm so if you can have more edges cutting per revolution with a larger diameter blade then your shaft will be smoother. This keeping the same feedrate (inch per minute), cut depth and shaft (work piece) rpm. You'll need to work on getting the right combination of the above to get optimal result and do multiple passes in time intervals between passes.((VH)) said: