Tapering Question?

[Cue Crazy]

I have been playing around with center drilling some of My joint Pins. I was impressed with how nice they came out with some unusual center drills I recently aquired. I kind of like the idea of having the center hole in the pin for any future repairs should they need done. I have mandrels that screw on with center holes that fit a live center, but not as accurate as I would like that way. I figured the center in the pin will probably be better.

My questions-

Is there any reason I should not do this?

What are the ups and downs to going this way, and turning the butt down to the pin earlier on in the building proccess? possibly even on shortsplices as early as cutting the v grooves in them.

Just wondering who all has done this, and what their opinions are?

I know you can buy pins that way. I would'nt be breaking anyones patent would I Thanks Greg

 

[Sheldon]

What repairs do you do that require it? I find very little practical use for a center drilled pin after it is installed. I have used them a bit before install though.

 

[Michael Webb]

I agree with Sheldon, The center hole is a good feature but the same can be accomplished buy using a concave center that the head of the pin sits in. Of course this doesn't work if your cutting up rods and skipping the taper at the head of the pin.

 

[Cue Crazy]

What repairs do you do that require it? I find very little practical use for a center drilled pin after it is installed. I have used them a bit before install though.

Yeah, i think I was too confusing there Sheldon, I guess that would be a weak mounting. speaking of that reason you use It before installed. Just curious if that center hole left in the pin from It could be of use in any other ways? Also the cue bore for that tenon/shoulder, Can that be done earlier on, run a straight dead center or dummy bar of some type up in there, and true the blank up to the deadcenter before cutting the v-grooves. would that help keep points lined up If I do It before cutting v-grooves in a short splice, or is it better to turn a tenon down on the forearm of the short splice and chuck it up when cutting the points? The points blanks I have picked up look like they were mounted using a common spur drive, and just does not seem like the most accurate method to me. i would rather use a more dependable method if there is one. I have seen and heard of few ways to do It, but confused to which is the best.

I still have a interest in the method you mentioned, but for a different reason.A good undersized drill & reamer helped solve most of that centering issue I had It seems like. The unilocs are really nice also, I am able to bore those now instead of drilling, and tap the bottom. They center out very nicely.

Mike, LOL that concave totally slipped me, and this whole time I have been fighting with a mandrel/drive and live center. I can't believe I let that get by me. I do apprietitate it. The only concave I have right now is the size of a tip. Do I need a smaller one to fit the pin, and is that accurate enough to finish up a taper on, or cut a wrap groove?

Thanks both of you, your good guys and have been very helpfull to me more then a few times I do apprietiate you sharing alittle of you experience with Me. You both seem to do excellent work, so I know It comes from a good source.

Thanks Greg

 

[Michael Webb]

Personally I like the concave better than the center whole. I did one dead concave and one live. All the ways you mentioned for cutting points are good but I wouldn't do it with the pin in.

 

[hadjcues]

Greg, ey buddy!

I've seen centered drilled pins on some radials. You have to assume though that the pin was put in straight and concentric with the cue. I'm very careful when having a finished cue between centers... specially on the pin itself.

What I do on the joint part bore a dowel, thread then screw it on the pin (like a JP) then chuck it up... keeping any part of the cue in contact with the centers.

In cutting points, it's easier to chuck up the bottom end of the forearm on my part. I could pretty much make sure there's no slack when I cut the points... but I believe a forearm should be trued up and tapered properly... which will insure even points when final taper is done.... not to mention starting and ending at the same spot when cutting the point grooves

 

[Sheldon]

Yeah, i think I was too confusing there Sheldon, I guess that would be a weak mounting. speaking of that reason you use It before installed. Just curious if that center hole left in the pin from It could be of use in any other ways? Also the cue bore for that tenon/shoulder, Can that be done earlier on, run a straight dead center or dummy bar of some type up in there, and true the blank up to the deadcenter before cutting the v-grooves. would that help keep points lined up If I do It before cutting v-grooves in a short splice, or is it better to turn a tenon down on the forearm of the short splice and chuck it up when cutting the points? The points blanks I have picked up look like they were mounted using a common spur drive, and just does not seem like the most accurate method to me. i would rather use a more dependable method if there is one. I have seen and heard of few ways to do It, but confused to which is the best.

I have had occasion to install a pin in 'scrap' wood, then put the pin between centers and true up the wood. Center-drill both ends and plug the one at the back with wax before you glue it in so you can reveal it later. Then I bore a hole in the forearm and fit the pin that way. This method insures that the pin is dead-nuts straight if your lathe is set up right.

Cutting v-grooves, you will probably be best off to turn your forearm between centers, then cut your tennon while still between centers, and chuck up on that. I usually cut a tenon slightly over .630, so that when I put joint rings on, I can give it another slight pass to make the trim nice and snug. cut your tenon too small and you could have problems.

 

[Cue Crazy]

Personally I like the concave better than the center whole. I did one dead concave and one live. All the ways you mentioned for cutting points are good but I wouldn't do it with the pin in.

Thanks Mike,

A straight shank concave will work for me, don't need the tapered shank to mount It, and may be able to make a dead center If I can find something here to cut the concave out with. the live center I have might work I'll have to check the pin to it for fit. If Not I can Buy a couple more decent ones more suitable. I am still kicking Myself in disbelief, that that one slipped By me for that long, simply because I use a concave for other stuff almost everyday LOL. I guess I probably thought about It at sometime, but just did not realize It would center well enough for something like that also. Thanks for the headsup on It. I will give It a try. Greg

 

[Michael Webb]

Glad I could help. I'll send you a pm.

 

[Cue Crazy]

Greg, ey buddy!

I've seen centered drilled pins on some radials. You have to assume though that the pin was put in straight and concentric with the cue. I'm very careful when having a finished cue between centers... specially on the pin itself.

What I do on the joint part bore a dowel, thread then screw it on the pin (like a JP) then chuck it up... keeping any part of the cue in contact with the centers.

In cutting points, it's easier to chuck up the bottom end of the forearm on my part. I could pretty much make sure there's no slack when I cut the points... but I believe a forearm should be trued up and tapered properly... which will insure even points when final taper is done.... not to mention starting and ending at the same spot when cutting the point grooves

Can't forget My ol Buddy Hadj, always a pleasure swapping ideas with you my friend. Where you been hiding at? Have'nt heard from you in a while. How's the cnc going? Mine is even farther back on the burner now. Still working on getting the walls and roof back up on the other shop, and been swamped with repair on top of that, so I am trying to work on My cues alittle here and there when I can fit it in.


Are you talking about drilling tapping the hole in the forearm, and making a dummy bar/drive on the jp thing you mentioned, except without the pin glued in the cue?

I have a few cues where I am cutting the tenon long at the joint like what sheldon mentioned I believe. Besides being able to chuck up the tenon, I have a center hole on the end as well for live center. The nice about that to me is that rings can go in earlier, and always come out even looking, and well centered at the face.

I am considering turning this tenon down earlier on, trueing the forearm up to the tenon, or tenon center hole, when I start cutiing My points ,that way I am working from the same center from the get go, all the way through the proccess of building the cue. I am still open to everything, just overthinking this probably. The reason I started thinking about an internal deadcenter, was for a situation like sheldon is mentioning, where the center drilled pin and tenon goes later, not going there for the center drilled pin, because they are going in straight now, and not just for the centering issue, but rather something else. I know atleast You and mike have mentioned something simular to me, so probably know why,I'm positive sheldon probably does too, but not going to bring that up on here for obvious reasons. Anyway point being, I'm wondering if the bore would be of use for a deadcenter earlier on also. You can see there are 2 ways I could go, but I am stuck in the middle. I also run between centers too, but was wondering what other ways I could use this situation to My adavantage.

I am still experiementing like you, and just trying different things out, so that's the reason for me jumping all around in My thought on this one. By the way have you ever noticed how much easier It is to drill or tap a straight dowel instead of a tapered dowel. Wonder how that could be utilized to an advantage? I am in thought mode again, and just full of questions I guess. I asked My magic 8ball a few questions, and it just says "Ask Again Later" Guess I need a great Big book of everything.


Good to hear from you man, thought you hit the big time on us, and was stuck on tour or something .

Greg

 

[Cue Crazy]

I have had occasion to install a pin in 'scrap' wood, then put the pin between centers and true up the wood. Center-drill both ends and plug the one at the back with wax before you glue it in so you can reveal it later. Then I bore a hole in the forearm and fit the pin that way. This method insures that the pin is dead-nuts straight if your lathe is set up right.

Cutting v-grooves, you will probably be best off to turn your forearm between centers, then cut your tennon while still between centers, and chuck up on that. I usually cut a tenon slightly over .630, so that when I put joint rings on, I can give it another slight pass to make the trim nice and snug. cut your tenon too small and you could have problems.

Yep, that's what I was refering to, from before when you sugested It to me. The combination of fixing the buggers in my jaws , the undersized carbide drill, and correct size reamer worked on My centering problem, but I am trying it for other reasons which I am sure you already know.

Lately I have been cutting a tenon between centers on non point cues or inlayed cues as you mentioned. You are correct It does work well, so That is probably My first option. I just got to thinking about the tenon for the pin going in later anyway, so that is why I thought of something like running a deadcenter up in there when cutting My points. I guess like Mike said, either way will work huh. I'll probably just stick with the way mentioned, like I am doing it now. "If Aint Broke Don't Fix it" .

Thanks man, By the way you have any more of those brain teaser cues in the works? I always enjoy trying to figure out how you do some of the designs you come with. seems like you sometimes do little things just to pull It off, and stump the mind, and is very interesting to me, trying to figure out How you did it. Most people probably have no idea when they see them, but that's the first thing I notice for some reason .

Greg

 

[hadjcues]

Yep, that's what I was refering to, from before when you sugested It to me. The combination of fixing the buggers in my jaws , the undersized carbide drill, and correct size reamer worked on My centering problem, but I am trying it for other reasons which I am sure you already know.

Lately I have been cutting a tenon between centers on non point cues or inlayed cues as you mentioned. You are correct It does work well, so That is probably My first option. I just got to thinking about the tenon for the pin going in later anyway, so that is why I thought of something like running a deadcenter up in there when cutting My points. I guess like Mike said, either way will work huh. I'll probably just stick with the way mentioned, like I am doing it now. "If Aint Broke Don't Fix it" .

Thanks man, By the way you have any more of those brain teaser cues in the works? I always enjoy trying to figure out how you do some of the designs you come with. seems like you sometimes do little things just to pull It off, and stump the mind, and is very interesting to me, trying to figure out How you did it. Most people probably have no idea when they see them, but that's the first thing I notice for some reason .

Greg

Are you talking about drilling tapping the hole in the forearm, and making a dummy bar/drive on the jp thing you mentioned, except without the pin glued in the cue?

Yeah that's it.

Btw, using spur drives ain't good. The piece could slip and that's it... gone..

As for drilling a straight compared to a tapered dowel, main reason is it's easier to chuck up a straight dowel... unless your chucks jaws are tapered just like the tapered dowel you mentioned.

One method is using a collet tapered internally as you dowel when chucking up. This will insure it runs true and centered.

Another method for drilling tapered dowels is chucking up a drill bit, have the dowel between centers... while spinning, slowly advance the tailstock while getting a grip on the dowel... this will push the dowel into the bit chucked up at the headstock. This insures that your tapered dowel runs true between centers and hole to be true. This is common practice I learned from woodworkers.

Been busy lately bud... working on a few nowadays. I'll post pics when I get to borrow a cam... working on scrimshaw too

 

[Cue Crazy]

Are you talking about drilling tapping the hole in the forearm, and making a dummy bar/drive on the jp thing you mentioned, except without the pin glued in the cue?

Yeah that's it.

Btw, using spur drives ain't good. The piece could slip and that's it... gone..

As for drilling a straight compared to a tapered dowel, main reason is it's easier to chuck up a straight dowel... unless your chucks jaws are tapered just like the tapered dowel you mentioned.

One method is using a collet tapered internally as you dowel when chucking up. This will insure it runs true and centered.

Another method for drilling tapered dowels is chucking up a drill bit, have the dowel between centers... while spinning, slowly advance the tailstock while getting a grip on the dowel... this will push the dowel into the bit chucked up at the headstock. This insures that your tapered dowel runs true between centers and hole to be true. This is common practice I learned from woodworkers.

Been busy lately bud... working on a few nowadays. I'll post pics when I get to borrow a cam... working on scrimshaw too

Yeah I make stuff like that all the time for several things. I usually like to use something alittle stronger, but wood gets the job done and easier on the taps delrin works also, but slips in the jaws easier, so not ideal for indexing situations. brass is pretty soft, and taps easy, would'nt use a good tap. That's one nice thing about 5/16x18, can get them anywhere, and don't have to use a expensive tap for that kind of stuff.

The spur drive I have is not the same as a conventional wood lathe spur. It actually had a 60 on the end so not worried about throwing the piece out the lathe, but your probably talking about on indexing. It works great for roughing stock in. That is what I mostly use It for.

Yep, the taper throws it all off, the straight I don't even have to indicate. I just tapped a small straight dowel, and It was dead centered. It would not even need trued up to the pin if the tenon did'nt need sized. the tapered you need to indicate, and then at some point you have to learn to live with some amount of runout anyway, because the indicator tells all, every tiny bit.

I am familiar with the wood lathe method of advancing the tailstock, believe that one was even in a old issue of wood working magazine many years ago.

The method I've been using early on, is mark My centers, then I center punch them, then i put a center drill in My hand drill, and drill just enough of a tapered hole to fit My centers, and I cut slots or drill a hole in on end to fit My spur. I trim several times between centers until It fits in My headstock. then I can can work It however I choose. Between centers and in the headstock. It will center when you trim anyway, providing the hole is somewhere close to center. the closer the better though. It's true to the center hole By the time It fits the headstock.

Cool that your getting some time to work on some cues, I still have to take what time is leftover right now, but hope It will all be worth It when said & done, and I'll finally have more time & work space. Let me know when you post pics.

 

[Cue Crazy]

Mike,

Just wanted to tell you I already made a concave, and It worked Great, I broke 2 bits in the proccess, so I know It is a solid center. thick shank also. It was alot harder then stainless so should last. it was like trying to drill carbide .

Thanks again for the help. I have a feeling It will get alot of use.

Greg

 

[Sheldon]

Thanks man, By the way you have any more of those brain teaser cues in the works? I always enjoy trying to figure out how you do some of the designs you come with. seems like you sometimes do little things just to pull It off, and stump the mind, and is very interesting to me, trying to figure out How you did it. Most people probably have no idea when they see them, but that's the first thing I notice for some reason .

I'm building a cue now with ivory, turquoise, and 2 silver veneers. Should be a stunner!

 

[Cue Crazy]

I'm building a cue now with ivory, turquoise, and 2 silver veneers. Should be a stunner!

WoW, want to see that one when you get pictures Sheldon. I really like the sound of that combination, so much that I have the same materials waiting to go in a cue myself, when I set My panto back up. Minus the silver veneers ofcoarse, because I am not ready to attempt that yet . Should be nice with those in there also. The last one I saw was something else, and very nice. Keep up the good work.

Greg