The Fastest Way To Make Popular To The Masses

  • Thread starter Thread starter THE SILENCER
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SneakyPete said:
No one knows as yet what would make the game popular to the masses. If we did, then I wouldn't be making this post.


Sir, may I politely disagree with you, I do, I know, let there be no question about this and so did my teacher Jimmy Caras. We would talk at length every Sunday evening up to his passing and later in his years this was all he wanted to really discuss. Jimmy knew. 9 ball and what pool had become broke the old hall of famers heart.

Pool and billiards, snooker and other close related games have been immensely popular with the masses for two centuries. The people love these games, that one is firmly established. The powers to be have tried to kill off what I call "the peoples game" in the last twenty years, it remains. It may be off the prime time TV, or no longer considered a sport and in the newspapers, but to the 45 million ball bangers who play it all over our wonderful country, it's their sport and it is popular with their masses.

The game is there, the problem is people do no just watch a game. As a kid I did not go to a baseball game to watch baseball, neither did my father. Dad went to watch Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, and Joey D. I went to watch Mickey Mantel, Ted Williams and Stan Musial.

Just watching people play golf is boring as hell, unless you are playing it. The thrill of golf was being in Arnies army and cheering him to victory after victory, I was there for most of them. I was there crying like a baby when the old Nicklaus won his last Masters beating the young Sevie he had no right to. His time had passed, he was supposed to politely fold, not come from behind 8 strokes and vanquish the entire field. That is what real sports is all about, creating heroes, following those heroes and worshiping those heroes as the Gods and legends they then become? If you do not create that and have that, then you have nothing as we now do today.

Pool once had in their papers weekly the exploits of Ives, Vignaux, Daly, Schaefer, Hoppe, Taberski, Greenleaf, Caras, Mosconi, and Crane. Joe Davis, Steve Davis, Walter Lindgrum and Raymond Cuelemans. They followed their daily progress and news on the front pages of our newspapers as Golf and Tennis is done today.
Hoppe and Greenleaf were as popular as Babe Ruth in their day and both made more money than the bambino. Ralph could even out drink him.

Today pool has no real heroes compared to back then, but the Philippines do. Efren is their Babe Ruth. Japan and China does, we do not. Snooker and Billiards does, pool does not. We have a major problem here and nobody knows it, nobody understands it and nobody is doing anything about it but bringing in carpet baggers from other lands to be our new heroes.
That is caused by two things; the people who have promoted and ran the game do not understand this.

2nd problem is the game its self, 9 ball is a game I love but it does not produce champions or heroes, it is a game of luck, a fast nice game to gamble on in the back room, there in it is flawed and should never have taken the place of the championship game of 14.1., which will produce the best player if you play to a block of 1000 balls in the final. Then there is no luck. That is why Snooker used to play the final to 32 frames, no luck then existed. We are doing a race to 5, I don’t know whether to puke or cry. TV pool changed all of that and ripped the heart and soul out of the game as they bastardized the sport to fit between commercials because they were too cheap to edit and present a finished product. We sold the game to ESPN and got our 30 pieces of silver back that is a race to 5 with alternating breaks.

Now we are doing races to 5 with alternating breaks which is now a game for old ladies, kids and drunks, that is no way to measure a champion. It has become a bad joke; any one can win and does. Nobody can dominate, there fore no heroes emerge. A race to 5, why not just flip a friggin coin and save the table time. If they are going to do that, then lets get on with it and do a race to one for the championship, that will fit on TV great and for the first time we may actually see the entire match with out a third of it being cut out.
There is a 3rd problem which is where and how those new heroes emerge, how they come up in the ranks of pool and get on center stage and why but I choose not to go into that now. That now happens by chance and that should be controlled as it was in Snooker under Barry Hearn.
:D
 
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Sorry, what I meant was making Pool popular to the masses of people that watch television. A lot of people who play in the 8-Ball leagues probably wouldn't watch Pool on television. The solution may have been found with the trick shots which I wish you the best of luck with.
 
THE SILENCER said:
it's simple, trick shots. the average human can't stand to watch pool. they don't understand it, and find it dull. however humans from 5 to 105 years old LOVE trick shots! if some new executive at abc or some major network said hey there are shows on gardening,home improvments,chicken rotesires,jewlery sales, a golf network, who wants to be a millinaire, and other assorted crap, let's try billiard trick shots, why not bubby, why not???

Trick shots ARE boring, and age of the viewer has nothing to do with it. It has to do with it being a pretty simple concept. Shoot whitey, make ball. Throw in some obstacles and still make ball. Personally, I wouldn't want to watch two pro basketball players play HORSE, why would I want to take a game (pool) the Average Joe doesn't understand in the first place and play HORSE with that? The best way to make pool popular is to add some money, plain and simple. Nobody cares about watching players aiming to make peanuts. Poker is now huge on TV, and it ain't because card-playing is exciting. It's the money, the nuts on the line. Could you imagine the tension on a long 9 ball cut for $1.5 million? Course, somebody tried to do a million dollar tournament, and that got killed because of a lack of trust on the part of fans and players alike.

Besides, I think pool is too cerebral for the Average Joe to understand its intricacies. Those of us who play, we see the layouts in TV matches and we see a road map. Mitch Laurance can't spell road map, let alone explain one. Until we get rid of him dumbing down the sport, no one will ever understand what really goes on during a well-executed runout. Most people see the game as "make the colored ball go in the hole" and that's that. There's a lot more to it than that, but that's what Average Joe sees. Most people don't understand the intracacies of poker, either, but they're watching because of all that money in the pot. Something has to attract the viewer, and money is usually where it's at.

-djb
 
Is selling pool and gambling the wrong thing to do?

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Andy Segal said:
I don't think gambling is the way to go.

Part 1 of 2
Hi this is Fast: Andy, there will always be people who will never like trick shots. You can never get me to like one pocket. Different strokes for different folks is what I say, that is why there are so many pool games in the back of the rule book.

A billiard player who ran around in a white suit, no not Butera or John Trevolta said: "It were not best that we all think alike: Difference of opinion is what makes horse races"

We have a real education to do on the pool world. 1st they must understand we do not do trick shots, we don't trick or hustle any one; gamblers do that with their proposition shots. We are artistes, we play a new sport, it is a new game like 9 ball, and it is called Artistic. ESPN gets a hold of this and begins to bastardize it immediately like they did 9 ball. This 2 shot game of horse is not our sport. This is a TV fun thing. There is good and bad with it. The bad is those guys do not see this as a sport, they see it as something to just be used and as filler.
The good is Artistic has been finally been introduced even if it was on the wrong foot and most of the young people in the pool world have gone wild over it. That gave the opportunity for a giant nobody like Andy Segal to get on TV by accident and take on the best and damn near beat them all. He became an over night sensation and media darling. That is the miracle of TV; it can produce heroes and does. Most of you do not know this is a sport; it has an organization called the IAPA. They have a tour and take 3 shots to make 40 which are divided up into separate disciplines. This has never been seen on TV, some day you may see their world championship being played and then get a better understanding of what they are really doing, and it is not 2 shot horse. For those of you in the Northeast this is coming in March, a tour stop is up for Hartford, Ct and at the Allen Hopkins Expo in Phil, Pa, come see Andy perform in both events along with the top players coming in from all over the world.
Coming is the new Big Kahuna Fantasy tour, were the magnificent 16 take on the hardest and toughest shots of all time, pools ultimate rumble and test of skill.
For you guys who say you don't like trick shots, you have not seen anything yet, we are going to blow your socks off and many of you then may change your mind.

I agree with everything Andy said except on the Gambling. Gambling is legal in every state of the union now but one. Casinos are everywhere. We as a country are now on a gambling binge never seen before in our history. Trying to stamp out gambling is like trying to stamp out ladies of the night, it cannot be done. It is a major part of pool, always has been, always will be. It is not going away so I say use it and sell it.

If you go into the pool forum, www.billiards-pool.net, open the Christian pool forum, there is a thread on that now, do you gamble. You can read my position on that and others, or feel free to join in on it. That is a question for every pool player who is a Christian and goes to church to resolve by himself.

Some of us are very strict and live in worlds of black or white, some of us live in worlds of gray. I came up in and live in now a very religious strict family. I am obviously the black sheep. I am the only one who gambles, or drinks a little. I do get on the crap table when I am in Vegas. I do not hide this nor will I be a hypocrite trying to sell you I am this saint and then becoming something else behind your back. I do not consider my self a gambler. I only gamble when I get to Vegas, I don't gamble on sports or pool or anything else. When I entertain and present my show, I have a very strong anti smoking, anti drug and anti gambling message for those who will listen to it.

Doing something under moderation and under strict guidelines and controls is one thing; just running amuck with no controls is the highway to hell. An example would be a family man who is in Vegas and budgets $50 to $100 a day to play black jack. When he loses it and he will, he quits and takes his family out to a show or dinner. I don’t have a problem with that guy. The other extreme is Chevy Chase in the movie Vegas vacation where he blows the family fortune on the tables; his daughter becomes a Ho and his son a Hi roller.
Very funny yes, but the streets out there are lined with losers who just did the same thing. My good friend Mike Massey calls Vegas, Sodom and Gomorrah and he is probably right on that.

Mike was like me, once, long ago, he was a gambler and a roadie, but he saw the destruction involved and the wasted lives it produced. He stopped, found the Lord and became the wonderful guy everyone today loves and admires. None of us in the Artistic world at the top gambles on our games or hustles people; we are entertainers and teachers of the game. I have not played for real money since 1973 when I hung that up.

All of us in Artistic are trying to be role models for all pool players to look up to and follow our examples and our conduct of play and our sportsmanship. When Mike presented to me at the 2000 BCA world artistic championship the new sportsmanship plaque and award, I cherish that today equal to any thing I have ever won or accomplished in the past. Being a true sportsman is what all of the Artistic players are about.
We have our place in the pool world, just as the gambler has his place. We have our rules and codes of conduct, so does he? It is two entirely different people and worlds. I say let artistic and its new sport take the high road, let the 9 ball gamblers and their ring games take the low road.

Since 9 ball is stuck with that image and Hollywood has so firmly entrenched it on the world, they need to realize that their goody too shoes approach and sell isn’t getting bought by any of the media or corporate sponsors. That sell has been failing now since 1973. Their only chance to get out of the rut they are in is to sell what they have, gambling. It worked for Poker, it will work for pool.

If Andy has gone to Johnston City year after year in the early 60's and watched these guys do nothing but gamble for weeks at a time, he might have a better understanding of this. That is how pool got on TV prime time for the first time, the wild world of sports, Jim McKay, Luther Lassiter Playing Boston Shorty at one pocket. Billiards Digest ran that picture on their cover and there I was sitting in the stands right behind Luther, I was there. TV came to view and to telecast gambling and the top 100 gamblers in the country. Why did we not understand that, it was right in front of us all that time? No, they tried to push gamblers playing as penguins in ball rooms and they looked silly in those costumes, like Fatty used to say, putting a real pool player in a tux is like putting whipped cream on a hot dog, Willie Mosss kone E, dare is a real penguin.

That was the greatest pool event of all time, bar none. Since pool and 9 ball is now branded with the sleaze ball image for life, they may as well accept this sentence and go out and sell what they do have, sleaze, 9 ballers playing a ring game for a million bucks, sleaze sells, gambling sells, if it does not, then were did Vegas come from. Church people did not finance the construction of these billion dollar hotels and casinos, gamblers did, and losers did.

Who in the world would want to watch a bunch of sleazy back room criminal types play poker, you wonder did they empty the jails to get the field up. Would you want your daughter going out with one of those bums, I don't think so. Put a million dollars riding on the line and now that format is a Hugh success. They have me watching it, which is not hard to do since Binions is where I hang out when I am in Vegas, you don’t find me out on the strip.

There is a message there and that message is, if it worked for Poker, it would as well for Pool, who has a mil to loan me, I'll put it on TV and prove it to you. If somebody did, it would just make pool more popular than ever and even the Artistic guys pushing this perfect image would still benefit from the gamblers success. The pie would get bigger; all would then eat a bigger piece. The two biggest surges in pool and its success that opened thousands of rooms and made many men millionaires who ran those rooms were gambling and the glorification of that.
That was two movies, about a low life pool hustler, who did nothing but lose and use, abuse and abandon every one who tried to help him. Sarah wrote on her mirror with lip stick his life and world was evil, twisted and perverted. Most of the movie goers missed that message Tevis gave you. The cons name was Fast Eddy Felson.
That is the lesson.

There is a place for the Artistic guys, who are all very religious, all with very squeaky clean backgrounds, all impeccably dressed in their tuxes and presenting pool as a true gentlemen’s game played by true gentlemen. Thank God for them and their arrival on the scene. They present a new sport and real family entertainment. You can take your entire family in to see their show. You would not take your family in the see the high stakes 9 ball ring game.





:D
 
Part 2 of 2

I happen to also believe there is a place for the sleazy back room types to be playing a million dollar 9 ball ring game on prime time TV, then the Big Kahuna fantasy artistic contest could come on right behind it. It could be the 1-2 punch of all time. God if I had the money I would do it tomorrow. Pool would explode.

I would like to see 8 ball on TV and 14.1 come back. I would like to see a variety. If all you get on ESPN is trick shots over and over you begin to hate them. They over exposed the thing to death, drove it into the ground. The same thing has happened to Women’s 9 ball. We crave the men to come back and see 6 racks being run in a row, we are tired of seeing ducking and safety play to win. We need to mix this up some and see where it goes.
That is my view of it, IMHO, please do not shoot the messenger.

May God bless and peace be with you. May the wind be always on your back and
all 9 balls fall. VENI VIDI VICI, OMNIA VINCIT AMOR. Latin for “I came, I saw, I conquered, love conquerors all.
“Fast Larry” Guninger





:D[/QUOTE]
 
Sorry to disagree with topspin but I don't believe 80% of the American population have played pool and therefore are interested in it. People watch what they enjoy. I would watch any type of pool as I shoot pool and enjoy it all. You couldn't pay me to watch golf as I have played it and found I have no interest in it. Just because people have played something at one time or another does not mean they like it and will watch it.

What will it take. PROMOTION. I fooled around with a bit of circle track racing in the 60's. Back then if you told someone you liked NASCAR racing they assumed you were uneducated, from the backwoods, and probably had something to do with moonshine whiskey. Is it not big bucks today? PROMOTION.

I think Fast Larry needs to go out in the back yard and dig up a few of those fruit jars and start promotion of some of the ideas he has. Folks, that is what it is going to take to put pool in the spotlight - MONEY!!!!!!!!!!
 
Maybe we need to see a FARGO tournament between the pros. Each plays 7 racks for 210 total points. 2 points for each ball made in order until they miss, 1 point for each ball made before switching to rotation. That would bring out lots of strategy, breaking up clusters before heading on to rotation. I doubt we would see each player starting with rotation, but maybe at least running 11-13 balls straight. if you were down it would force you to have to try to play the whole table in rotation to catch up. Mixes both straight pool and 9balleque tactics. Then people would get to see them breaking all 15 once more. I think it would be a good idea to see all the pros doing this...and what their average is by the end of the year. A bonus to the top player. things to think about.
 
Pelican said:
Sorry to disagree with topspin

I think Fast Larry needs to go out in the back yard and dig up a few of those fruit jars and start promotion of some of the ideas he has. Folks, that is what it is going to take to put pool in the spotlight - MONEY!!!!!!!!!!

Hi this is Fast, great idea, I have done just that, the Big Kahuna artistic pool tour is already a reality with the Magnificent 16 already signed up and in my stable. We are booked in our first event this November in Shanghai, China and are now looking for our 2nd gig.

Somebody dig up their fruit jars and put some loot behind me, put some muscle behind my hustle and I'll make this ring game thing take over pool overnight. The reason they call me Fast is Fast always has a plan man.

The bottom line is this, any body can talk da talk, but to walk da walk, money talks. Somebody has to show somebody da money. Somebody has to belly up to da bar and hang it all out. Talks cheap, BS walks and action talks.

Looks like the only way you guys are going to get this million dollar ring game rolling is to do a write in program and put my name in for president. There are 45 million of you playing pool, all 45 million of you write my name in and vote for me as pres, send me a copy of the write in, that becomes my marker. If you all do that, I win the popular vote and I am in office. George W is outta dare. He don't play no pool so let’s run dat bum off.

The ring game in on TV the next day, no problem. I'll throw basket ball off prime time TV so pool can take its place, I am tired of watching grown men playing in their under ware any way. Everyone who voted for me gets a new Meucci gambler cue with 2 shafts, plus free pool for the length of my administration.
I'll throw out some of that old fashioned furniture in the oval office and put in a nice gold crown in front of my desk. There will be a trick shot show at half time during the super bowl, then a 9 ball ring game to follow. All the top 50 9 ball pros will now make over a million bucks a year in prize money winnings. I'll pull in all of does corporate big shots and make dem an offer dey cannot refuse, turn loose da loot to pool or I turn loose the IRS on all of you. Your new summer homes will be Leavenworth, Kansas.

Earl will be the new secretary of war. I'll make Allison the ambassador to the court of St James. I'll make a new cabinet post and appoint Keith Mc Creedy the new entertainment minister. Gerni will be minister of telecom, Secretary of state will be Nick Varner, minister of religion will be Tom Kennedy, John Lewis is minister of all pool leagues and Rene Poehlman is white house chief of staff. The new press Secretary will be Ruth Welt. I’ll toss out all of the politicians and put in all pool people.
The first lady will now be the first Ho. Wonder Dog will sit next to me during my state of the union speeches in congress.

I'll leave all the workers back in DC to freeze, but my cabinet and advisors will now be in my new sub capitol of Kauai, which is in the USA. With cell phones I can work anywhere and Kauai works just fine for me. I will build a new 400mph bullet train like the japs have that leaves from all major cities and the main hub and terminal and center of it all is Las Vegas.

All beer, any brand, during my administration must be sold for one dollar each.

You guys want pool to take over sports then just let fast buy your vote and elect him the new President, hail to the chief, oh hell yes, tell me this cannot be done. :D
 
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Larry: Yes, I agree. When I first started playing 9-ball in Pittsburgh, there was a lot of action - mostly in one-pocket. That is why I like that game so much. You are right. People will watch what they enjoy. If someone is facinated with trick shots, they will love it. If they like to watch action matches, they will hate it. The nice thing is that to the non-pool playing public, trick shots is more interesting. At least from the small sample that I have been around, that is true. Look at what happened at our world championship in Kiev last summer. The audience wasn't made up of the usual 9-ball playing / gambling crowd. We had the mayor, some high people in the religious community, and just a lot of people who don't really play pool all that much.

Pelican: You are right: PROMOTION. The promotion comes from a product to sell. I'm not sure if 9-ball is that product. In fact, I am pretty sure it isn't. The trick shots may or may not be that product either. From my experience with both, trick shots seem to have a lot more potential. I'm not sure what you meant by telling Larry to 'go dig up some fruit...'. Just to let you know, he is putting his money where his mouth is. He is organizing a spectacular tournament in China this November which looks like it will be a great success. It also looks like it may break out into a full blown tour. I for one am very grateful for what Larry is doing to help out the sport of Artistic or Fantasy Pool. THANKS LARRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Andy Segal
 
King Cueball said:
Those who know, know, those that dont know dont know :rolleyes:


That's it, now you got it....
When you get where you actually know and acquire it all, you then realize, you then, know nothing my friend.
It's an Aristotle thing. Total knowledge eventually brings total humulity. :cool:
 
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