Which term best describes the UPA?
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I'm certainly not an expert but from what I read here and in BD, they sound like they're pretty dumb. It appears they have alienated a lot of the players. I don't remember them being this uptight with Don Mackey and I know they weren't real happy with him either. They don't even have a real handle on the situation and they're evidently threatening to sanction players. You don't start swinging a hammer before you have the materials to build the house!
Upa
OK Folks, I thought the UPA bashers had calmed down. As the tour begins another year, and one more than most of them predicted, here comes the crap again. Yes, no lawyer in their right mind would tell you, sign the contract. What lawyers tell us is for their benefit, not ours. Laws are written by lawyers for lawyers. Check the previous job description of most of our current and past legislators and judges. I call it job security at our expense. Only in America!
Anyway, what do Johnny Archer, Jose Parica, Danny Harriman, Rodney Morris, Tony Robles, Max Eberle, Efren Reyes, Ralf Soquet, Francisco Bustimonte, Mika Immonen, Nick Varner, Charlie Williams, Buddy Hall, Shawn Putnam ... damn, I'm tired of listing the names. Go to the UPA website and read the list. Are all of those guys stupid? Don't they have lawyers too? How about the women? Didn't they read and sign their contracts. Are they stupid? Most of the bitching I've seen comes from people that can't play their way out of a paper bag. All they do is bitch about people who can. In America, it is their right to do that. Just because it is their right, does not make them right. Just loud.
No one, not the BCA, APA, Valley or any other recognized organization other than the UPA seems to give a damn about those roughly 100 players that call themselves "professional pool players". Fend for themselves seems to be the only way. Perhaps someone on this board got it right when they suggested bringing in Barry Hearn. He runs a pretty tight ship. You think our players have little freedom to earn? I understand Mr. Hearn virtually "owns" all the top European players, the tour they play on and the rules making organization. They make money. Whats wrong with that picture?
Didn't I see Corey Deuel, Frankie Hernandez and Troy Frank listed in the brackets at Valley Forge. I guess they must have rejoined the UPA to play. Manlyshot must be heartbroken! Nothing to bitch about anymore. Wait a minute, there is still Earl!
OK Folks, I thought the UPA bashers had calmed down. As the tour begins another year, and one more than most of them predicted, here comes the crap again. Yes, no lawyer in their right mind would tell you, sign the contract. What lawyers tell us is for their benefit, not ours. Laws are written by lawyers for lawyers. Check the previous job description of most of our current and past legislators and judges. I call it job security at our expense. Only in America!
Anyway, what do Johnny Archer, Jose Parica, Danny Harriman, Rodney Morris, Tony Robles, Max Eberle, Efren Reyes, Ralf Soquet, Francisco Bustimonte, Mika Immonen, Nick Varner, Charlie Williams, Buddy Hall, Shawn Putnam ... damn, I'm tired of listing the names. Go to the UPA website and read the list. Are all of those guys stupid? Don't they have lawyers too? How about the women? Didn't they read and sign their contracts. Are they stupid? Most of the bitching I've seen comes from people that can't play their way out of a paper bag. All they do is bitch about people who can. In America, it is their right to do that. Just because it is their right, does not make them right. Just loud.
No one, not the BCA, APA, Valley or any other recognized organization other than the UPA seems to give a damn about those roughly 100 players that call themselves "professional pool players". Fend for themselves seems to be the only way. Perhaps someone on this board got it right when they suggested bringing in Barry Hearn. He runs a pretty tight ship. You think our players have little freedom to earn? I understand Mr. Hearn virtually "owns" all the top European players, the tour they play on and the rules making organization. They make money. Whats wrong with that picture?
Didn't I see Corey Deuel, Frankie Hernandez and Troy Frank listed in the brackets at Valley Forge. I guess they must have rejoined the UPA to play. Manlyshot must be heartbroken! Nothing to bitch about anymore. Wait a minute, there is still Earl!
cardiac kid said:
Stupid? I don't think so. In fact the UPA is a godsend for them if you keep in mind that they all get seeded in a UPA sanctioned event which means that they (the players you listed) will not have to face each other until round 3 at the earliest.
But, as I previously stated, I just don't care anymore. It really makes no difference to me what the UPA does, or does not do. If I want to watch the pros play I just go where they are playing and enjoy myself regardless of who is running the tournament. Of course if I was going to a UPA sanctioned tournament I sure wouldn't want to go the first day or two because the matches would be lop sided.
Jake
Cardiac
It would be nice if two people on this board would intelligently debate the pros and cons of the UPA. People have a tendency to bash without making an understandable point. Most of the posts, and correct me if I'm wrong, seem to indicate that the UPA is an autocratic organization that is too willing to mete out punishment without real merrit. You're one of the few people that seem to support the UPA. It seems to me that when an organization is in its infancy, they should try to use incentives and encouragement rather than exercising authority to consequate their players for minor infractions; this is the impression that most of us reading this board get.
It would be nice if two people on this board would intelligently debate the pros and cons of the UPA. People have a tendency to bash without making an understandable point. Most of the posts, and correct me if I'm wrong, seem to indicate that the UPA is an autocratic organization that is too willing to mete out punishment without real merrit. You're one of the few people that seem to support the UPA. It seems to me that when an organization is in its infancy, they should try to use incentives and encouragement rather than exercising authority to consequate their players for minor infractions; this is the impression that most of us reading this board get.
cardiac kid said:
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Hi Rick,
Thanks for your post. It appears you are right about me being one of the few supporters of the UPA. I guess it may be somewhat blind support but support none the less. One of the current BOD members is a very good friend of mine. I see him two to three times a week. I keep up with the latest through him. There is lots wrong with the UPA. If there was an alternative, I might support that but, there is NOTHING on the horizon. Only lots of bitching about the UPA and Charlie (still). Mark Griffin did a wonderful thing for the amateur pool player last week. Perhaps the day will come when Mark and Greg Sullivan will do the same for the "pros". Look what they are doing with the DCC!
During my thirty plus years in the electronics business, I made lots of decisions that irritated my customers, dealers and suppliers. Many I now regret making. Those decisions had to be made. I got to be the "bad guy". Someone always is. My hope is that the person making the final decision for the UPA has better insight than I!
Thanks for your post. It appears you are right about me being one of the few supporters of the UPA. I guess it may be somewhat blind support but support none the less. One of the current BOD members is a very good friend of mine. I see him two to three times a week. I keep up with the latest through him. There is lots wrong with the UPA. If there was an alternative, I might support that but, there is NOTHING on the horizon. Only lots of bitching about the UPA and Charlie (still). Mark Griffin did a wonderful thing for the amateur pool player last week. Perhaps the day will come when Mark and Greg Sullivan will do the same for the "pros". Look what they are doing with the DCC!
During my thirty plus years in the electronics business, I made lots of decisions that irritated my customers, dealers and suppliers. Many I now regret making. Those decisions had to be made. I got to be the "bad guy". Someone always is. My hope is that the person making the final decision for the UPA has better insight than I!
cardiac kid said:
Yes, Cardiac Kid, there is still Earl.
The reason Corey, Frankie, and Troy attended Valley Forge is because Allen Hopkins, the promoter, declared it was his desire that all pool players should be afforded an opportunity to compete. In other words, they DID NOT HAVE TO BE A UPA MEMBER to participate in Valley Forge. Did you know that, Cardiac Kid?
Now let's get the FACTS straight, Cardiac Kid.
Last month's Billiards Digest and Inside Pool magazines published an interview with Robert Lipson, the new UPA president. Under a new leadership, it would be splendid and delightful to see a "new" UPA emerge and be the shot in the arm sorely needed in men's pool.
Contracts. The UPA player's contract is currently under review and revision, to be finalized later this year.
Players who have other interests to worry about, such as commitments to already-existing sponsors, must have the option of having their contract reviewed by an attorney. Corey, Frankie, and Troy will have a different UPA contract that will be dissimilar to a Cardiac Kid's UPA boilerplate contract, as an example and as it should be.
And then there's Earl. The UPA must attempt to convince Earl that a new-and-improved organization can help him as much as his participation will unify the UPA; in other words, negotiations have to occur.
ManlyShot
jjinfla said:
Hi Jake,
I HATE seeding. One of the reasons I tend to play Joss Tour Events, the DCC and like events is to avoid seeding. It is a reward for past performance and support. Is it too strong? I'm not good enough or knowledgeable enough to say for sure. I just don't like it.
If you missed the first two days of the Players at Valley Forge, you missed some of those bottom guys handing it to some of the top guys. Has parity arrived in the UPA? Not by a long shot. Has more quality arrived? You bet! You'll see more of that quality as the Florida Pro Tour continues to attract players from the Northeast and elsewhere. I guess I want to watch the first couple of days more that the final two. I'll see the next Earl before you! You might get to see the same guys over and over. Kind of like the women!
If you read the list of UPA member players, which ones do you feel think that seeding is a godsend? If you are not in the top sixteen points, you are out of luck. Count those guys again. How about the ones that rarely make an appearance in this country. Would you, as seed number one like to draw Efren as seed number seventeen? It could (has/will) happen. The more you play, the more points you accumulate. That reward thing.
cardiac kid said:
As a UPA member, Cardiac Kid, do you need to seek approval from the UPA to attend a Joss tournament?
Just as a hypothetical, being a Joss Tour supporter, which tournament would you attend, the Joss Tour $25,000 Final Tournament held in Maine or a UPA-sanctioned tournament held in Philadelphia, both occurring on the same dates?
ManlyShot
Great question manlyshot,
As a business person, I would look at which venue offered the best potential profit / expense ratio. I'm a card carrying member of both. The CCC was my last UPA event in Philly. Not a good event for anyone but the winner. The Joss Tour finals in New Bedford last year was great. Well organized. Well run. If pushed, I would choose the Joss finals. No seeding, lower entry fees (for me), better chance to win the green. Make of that what you want!
As a business person, I would look at which venue offered the best potential profit / expense ratio. I'm a card carrying member of both. The CCC was my last UPA event in Philly. Not a good event for anyone but the winner. The Joss Tour finals in New Bedford last year was great. Well organized. Well run. If pushed, I would choose the Joss finals. No seeding, lower entry fees (for me), better chance to win the green. Make of that what you want!