why do some non-factory / 3rd party shafts fit so tightly on the joint pin

S

sbrownn

Registered
I got a 12.5mm kielwood lightly roasted shaft yesterday. Looks very nice except for one problem. I have 5 butts that have a 3/8x10 joint pin. The 3 custom cues have a 3/8x10 modified pin, the 2 Schmelkes I own have a standard 3/8x10 pin. The new I recieved seems to be very tightly tapped for 3/8x10 pins given the shaft will only tighten down 50% of the way on my 3 custom cues and only 75% of the way on the two Schmelke cues before it becomes too tight to turn. This is not the first time this has happened to me given once before the same issue happened when I first tried a CF shaft. Both the new kielwood and the old CF shaft I had problems with seemed to have been tapped into some kind of delrin or similar thread insert like McDermott does with their I series shafts, instead of wood to wood like all my other maple shafts I have. Given that I currently own 5 butts and 8 shafts already (all factory except one Rhino 12.5mm CF shaft that also has a delrin or similar insert) and all being 3/8x10 (modified or standard), I am able to swap / exchange any shaft onto any cue butt with no tight fitting issues I mentioned above.

Here is a link to the differences between a standard and modified 3/8x10 pins:
https://www.dzcues.com/modified_pin.html

Anyone else experience this problem? Can the new kielwood shaft be re-tapped / over-tapped to fix this?

TIA
 
Last edited:
Also a follow-up question. Does the Meucci The Pro maple 12.5mm shaft have a delrin or similar insert or is it tapped wood to wood?
 
Are you ordering shafts for your modified pin? If not you should be as they will also work on a standard 3/8x10, but 3/8x10 cut shafts will not screw on a modified pin without reaming or drilling out the center a few thousandths. Just because they are both 3/8x10, modified pins will not screw into a standard 3/8x10 shaft without a slight modification.
 
muskyed said:
Are you ordering shafts for your modified pin? If not you should be as they will also work on a standard 3/8x10, but 3/8x10 cut shafts will not screw on a modified pin without reaming or drilling out the center a few thousandths. Just because they are both 3/8x10, modified pins will not screw into a standard 3/8x10 shaft without a slight modification.
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That is not true if you read my original post.
 
muskyed said:
Are you ordering shafts for your modified pin? If not you should be as they will also work on a standard 3/8x10, but 3/8x10 cut shafts will not screw on a modified pin without reaming or drilling out the center a few thousandths. Just because they are both 3/8x10, modified pins will not screw into a standard 3/8x10 shaft without a slight modification.
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And also stated here (last two paragraphs): https://www.dzcues.com/modified_pin.html

Most standard or aftermarket 3/8-10 shafts will fit without further modification. They are usually bored/drilled to .3125" diameter & will have plenty of clearance for the FB pin. However, tapped threads are not as clean as live tooled threads. To correct combat this, some builders soak the threads with cyanoacrylate (CA) both before and after tapping to strengthen the torn wood & snug up the fit. This after-the-fact attempt at "precision" will make the shaft fit nicely on a std pin but can be too tight on a modified pin. Again, running a tap and/or a reamer into the hole will solve the problem.

Other things I've noticed:
Laminated shafts do not tap as cleanly as solid shafts.
Production shafts with inserts seem to a dull tap quickly.
Production shaft manufacturers are slow to replace a dull tap.

I guess the 2nd to last sentence answers my question about the delrin inserts vs wood to wood?
 
You asked, I gave you the correct answer, and I did thoroughly read your question. You don't have 5 cues with a 3/8x10 pin. You actually have 3 with a 3/8x10 modified and 2 with a 3/8x10 standard pin. They are not the same pin. Just because some of your other shafts are interchangeable, consider yourself lucky. From now on order shafts made for the 3/8x10 modified and you should not have problems.
Not only do I know the difference in the two pins as I actually have a DZ cue and also have 3 McDermott cues and none of the McDermott cues will thread on my DZ butt. If you look at what I wrote, I mentioned a shaft cut for the standard 3/8x10 could be made to work on most 3/8x10 modified pins by increasing the center hole size a few thousandths, .006 as DZ points out.
You may actually have a few standard 3/8x10 cut shafts that go on your 3/8x10 modified pinned butts, but don't expect this to be the norm, and they probably are all cut into wood and not into delrin or a similar material. Threads into wood can over time be compressed or just sloppy over time.
Just bring it to a cuemaker, it's an easy fix, and next time just order all shafts for a modified pin.
 
sbrownn said:
I got a 12.5mm kielwood lightly roasted shaft yesterday. Looks very nice except for one problem. I have 5 butts that have a 3/8x10 joint pin. The 3 custom cues have a 3/8x10 modified pin, the 2 Schmelkes I own have a standard 3/8x10 pin. The new I recieved seems to be very tightly tapped for 3/8x10 pins given the shaft will only tighten down 50% of the way on my 3 custom cues and only 75% of the way on the two Schmelke cues before it becomes too tight to turn. This is not the first time this has happened to me given once before the same issue happened when I first tried a CF shaft. Both the new kielwood and the old CF shaft I had problems with seemed to have been tapped into some kind of delrin or similar thread insert like McDermott does with their I series shafts, instead of wood to wood like all my other maple shafts I have. Given that I currently own 5 butts and 8 shafts already (all factory except one Rhino 12.5mm CF shaft that also has a delrin or similar insert) and all being 3/8x10 (modified or standard), I am able to swap / exchange any shaft onto any cue butt with no tight fitting issues I mentioned above.

Here is a link to the differences between a standard and modified 3/8x10 pins:
https://www.dzcues.com/modified_pin.html

Anyone else experience this problem? Can the new kielwood shaft be re-tapped / over-tapped to fix this?

TIA
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Because joint pins aren't standard, even with a standard. 3/8 by 10, my first Joss has a bigger pin than my second Joss, both 3/8 by 10. 5/16 by 14, my Richard Black is bigger than all my Scruggs cues with the same pin. I understand the Schon 5/16 by 14 is different also. Sometimes it takes a trip to a cue repair guy to run a tap through a shaft that won't accommodate what you thought was a standard pin.
 
So what's the answer?

I'm not adverse to buying a tap but I see there are at least a couple of different kinds (trapezoidal and regular). I had Shelby Williams make me some JP and the one for the pin is tight as... well, you know. He suggested taking it to a mechanic and having a tap run through it, problem solved. But if I want to do it myself, do I buy a regular 3/8 10 or a trapezoidal?

Lou Figueroa
inquiring minds
 
lfigueroa said:
So what's the answer?

I'm not adverse to buying a tap but I see there are at least a couple of different kinds (trapezoidal and regular). I had Shelby Williams make me some JP and the one for the pin is tight as... well, you know. He suggested taking it to a mechanic and having a tap run through it, problem solved. But if I want to do it myself, do I buy a regular 3/8 10 or a trapezoidal?

Lou Figueroa
inquiring minds
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Having watched Mike Cochran use a tap to loosen up the inside of an Acme shaft of mine more than once, I would go with the standard. If it helps, Mike simply held the shaft in his left hand and ran the tap inside the shaft with his right hand a couple times, wiggling it a bit as necessary. But then again, we're all not Mike Cochran. Good luck.
 
sbrownn said:
Also a follow-up question. Does the Meucci The Pro maple 12.5mm shaft have a delrin or similar insert or is it tapped wood to wood?
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The standard 5/16x18 pin uses a brass insert. Their big pin cues use wood threads.
 
WildWing said:
Having watched Mike Cochran use a tap to loosen up the inside of an Acme shaft of mine more than once, I would go with the standard. If it helps, Mike simply held the shaft in his left hand and ran the tap inside the shaft with his right hand a couple times, wiggling it a bit as necessary. But then again, we're all not Mike Cochran. Good luck.
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was this done with wood to wood threads or with a delrin / similar thread insert?
 
WildWing said:
Because joint pins aren't standard, even with a standard. 3/8 by 10, my first Joss has a bigger pin than my second Joss, both 3/8 by 10. 5/16 by 14, my Richard Black is bigger than all my Scruggs cues with the same pin. I understand the Schon 5/16 by 14 is different also. Sometimes it takes a trip to a cue repair guy to run a tap through a shaft that won't accommodate what you thought was a standard pin.
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My Schon and Jensen have smaller pins. JOSS shaft will go on either one but not vice-versa.
 
Does anyone else find this thread, or its subject, to be confusing? With the exception of a Scruggs with a "modified", none of my cues have exotic pins, so I guess I should just consider myself lucky and not struggle to understand things I don't need to understand.
 
Biloxi Boy said:
Does anyone else find this thread, or its subject, to be confusing? With the exception of a Scruggs with a "modified", none of my cues have exotic pins, so I guess I should just consider myself lucky and not struggle to understand things I don't need to understand.
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It's like buying replacement Mustang wheels for your Challenger and then wondering why they just don't bolt up...? I mean they're both 5 bolt wheels for a car...?
 
Biloxi Boy said:
Does anyone else find this thread, or its subject, to be confusing? With the exception of a Scruggs with a "modified", none of my cues have exotic pins, so I guess I should just consider myself lucky and not struggle to understand things I don't need to understand.
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All the info that you seem to be confused about is clearly stated here: https://www.dzcues.com/modified_pin.html

This is nothing different than a golfer knowing the specs of their custom fitted clubs, which happens quite often...
 
Several things can be the reason for this, but most likely the shafts you have are made for a specific 3/8-10 pin. The McDermott ones have a .285" minor, while a 3/8-10 Modified shaft has a .308" minor, but you can find makers who use other dimensions as well. If the shaft threads are wood, phenolic or nylon will have an impact on how snug it is, the same will how it's threaded. Did they use a tap? If so was it a H0 or a H3 or is it live threaded. All these factors will impact the final product.
 
sbrownn said:
was this done with wood to wood threads or with a delrin / similar thread insert?
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I've always found the term "wood to wood" to be a bit of a misnomer, as the only cues I'm aware of that are truly wood to wood are carom cues where the pin is wood, part of the shaft, and it screws into wood threads in the joint section of the butt.

For the Acme pin, it is 3/8 X 10 metal thread, which goes into bare wood threads in the shaft, no metal insert in the shaft.

Getting back to the tap Mike used to slightly widen the wood threads in the shaft, that tap is metal and he used it with a power drill, not a lathe. Possibly other cue makers use a slightly different method of loosening up wood threads in a shaft.
 
garczar said:
My Schon and Jensen have smaller pins. JOSS shaft will go on either one but not vice-versa.
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Yep, there is other variation as well. Having handled more than one Joss West cue, his 5/l6 X 14 thread would get tighter as it got closer to the butt joint. I assume either his pin got larger as it got down, or possibly the brass insert was tighter the farther down. I suspect the former, not sure.
 
sbrownn said:
Also a follow-up question. Does the Meucci The Pro maple 12.5mm shaft have a delrin or similar insert or is it tapped wood to wood?
Click to expand...
I just picked a stock Pro shaft and also custom ordered a classic shaft with the 3/8×10 pin. Both shafts fit my Shon Harding standard pin and Montalvo modified pin with no issues. There are no inserts, just wood.
 
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