Yet another finishing question

[Cue Crazy]

Has anyone ever had a problem with a urethane staying tacky on ebony or cocobolo, but drying fine on the other parts of the cue like the maple, veneers, linen rings/joint, butt cap, and metal rings. Basically just not wanting to fully dry on the ebony and the coco, but the rest of the cue dries fine.

Are the oil in the woods causing an issue when this happens or something? Should I clean them better with a thinner of some type, or will It even make a difference? I've tried sealing first, but the ambering or a darkening effect seems to take place , no matter which type of sealer I have gone with. if I go straight on with urethane the coloring is not an issue, but this tacky issue takes place.

Also with this tacky issue, it does'nt seem like it wants to fully cure no matter how much time I give It. Is there any way of accerating what's on the cue now? Or even a way I can strip it without ruining the cue? because It's already to size with the shaft matched, and don't have room for a cleanup pass.

I have used a stain conditioner before that's not too ambering or darkening, and in fact looked really good, and brought out the grain on birdseye without darkening the rest of the open grain, but It's supposed to be for open grain to better absorb stain evenly, so not sure If It would do any good on the tight grained oily woods as a primer.

I did use a spar on this one, because I got impatient as this was My own cue that i wanted to shoot with soon, & granted, probably not a good idea I know, but I will be spraying a regular auto urethane soon, and curious If an issue like this will come up with it also, before I even get into it? I'd like to make sure I have everything on hand, and in place when I go to using it.

Any thoughts or help would be very apprietiated.

Thanks Greg

 

[jim lee]

Has anyone ever had a problem with a urethane staying tacky on ebony or cocobolo, but drying fine on the other parts of the cue like the maple, veneers, linen rings/joint, butt cap, and metal rings. Basically just not wanting to fully dry on the ebony and the coco, but the rest of the cue dries fine.

Are the oil in the woods causing an issue when this happens or something? Should I clean them better with a thinner of some type, or will It even make a difference? I've tried sealing first, but the ambering or a darkening effect seems to take place , no matter which type of sealer I have gone with. if I go straight on with urethane the coloring is not an issue, but this tacky issue takes place.

Also with this tacky issue, it does'nt seem like it wants to fully cure no matter how much time I give It. Is there any way of accerating what's on the cue now? Or even a way I can strip it without ruining the cue? because It's already to size with the shaft matched, and don't have room for a cleanup pass.

I have used a stain conditioner before that's not too ambering or darkening, and in fact looked really good, and brought out the grain on birdseye without darkening the rest of the open grain, but It's supposed to be for open grain to better absorb stain evenly, so not sure If It would do any good on the tight grained oily woods as a primer.

I did use a spar on this one, because I got impatient as this was My own cue that i wanted to shoot with soon, & granted, probably not a good idea I know, but I will be spraying a regular auto urethane soon, and curious If an issue like this will come up with it also, before I even get into it? I'd like to make sure I have everything on hand, and in place when I go to using it.

Any thoughts or help would be very apprietiated.

Thanks Greg

Greg,
never had any good luck at all with the urathane. an auto clear is what i use now and if you rush the finish before you give the cue a chance to breathe between cuts you will have a problem. cocobola and ebony are hard to work with. by allowing them to breathe after your final cut before you seal it really helps. the moisture in these types of wood need to release before you cover them up. if not it will push its way out no matter what kind of clear you use. that is just the woods nature. is your shop temperature controlled?
if not , the cooler you keep it the better. Madison Bob is the guy I go to with questions like you have. He spends alot of time with his clear and how to shoot it. and his finish is nice and lasts.
Hope this helps ya
Jim Lee (JL Cues)

 

[Cue Crazy]

Greg,
never had any good luck at all with the urathane. an auto clear is what i use now and if you rush the finish before you give the cue a chance to breathe between cuts you will have a problem. cocobola and ebony are hard to work with. by allowing them to breathe after your final cut before you seal it really helps. the moisture in these types of wood need to release before you cover them up. if not it will push its way out no matter what kind of clear you use. that is just the woods nature. is your shop temperature controlled?
if not , the cooler you keep it the better. Madison Bob is the guy I go to with questions like you have. He spends alot of time with his clear and how to shoot it. and his finish is nice and lasts.
Hope this helps ya
Jim Lee (JL Cues)

Thanks for the advice Jim,

Yes I'm temp controlled, and in fact the wood is stored in a room in my house, and stays cool. the cocobolo was turned slow, and I had it long before I ever did a first turn on it. The ebony was in a v-blank I had that was made in the late 70's or early 80's, and was a small diameter before I even mated It with a handle, so I'm pretty sure they had time to breath.
Also I did'nt seal this cue between turns to see what would happen If I just slow turned, as I live in florida where it's humid, and was curious. so that should have let any moisture release.

It's probably just the crappy finish I used was really sensitive to them or something. That's all about to finally Change, because I've just about had enough of every alternative I used before. Had a water based I really liked, was nice and hard and shined close to auto, but moisture sensitive also. I refinished a cue with the stuff, and about 9 months later, I noticed some small bubbles appearing. Not really blisters like you usually see, but more the kind of bubbles you get when first spraying, and things are not quite setup right.

The CA finish, is just a pain altogether. It's alright for touching up a joint ring, or maybe joint protectors, but not really best suited for the whole cue.

Epoxy Is definatly not for me either, been there also.

I'm going to the clear also, was just trying to hold out alittle longer until ready to build the booth. I have the compressor and gun.

My main problem now, is I have this cue, with this crap on it, that I don't think is going to fully cure, and afraid to try to take It off , because I got a feeling I know what kind of problems may occur, and I don't have room to cut it out.

I always learn the hard way, Is there any other

Anyway thanks Again, and good to have you here.

Greg

 

[rhncue]

Thanks for the advice Jim,


Yes I'm temp controlled, and in fact the wood is stored in a room in my house, and stays cool. the cocobolo was turned slow, and I had it long before I ever did a first turn on it. The ebony was in a v-blank I had that was made in the late 70's or early 80's, and was a small diameter before I even mated It with a handle, so I'm pretty sure they had time to breath.
Also I did'nt seal this cue between turns to see what would happen If I just slow turned, as I live in florida where it's humid, and was curious. so that should have let any moisture release.

It's probably just the crappy finish I used was really sensitive to them or something. That's all about to finally Change, because I've just about had enough of every alternative I used before. Had a water based I really liked, was nice and hard and shined close to auto, but moisture sensitive also. I refinished a cue with the stuff, and about 9 months later, I noticed some small bubbles appearing. Not really blisters like you usually see, but more the kind of bubbles you get when first spraying, and things are not quite setup right.

The CA finish, is just a pain altogether. It's alright for touching up a joint ring, or maybe joint protectors, but not really best suited for the whole cue.

Epoxy Is definatly not for me either, been there also.

I'm going to the clear also, was just trying to hold out alittle longer until ready to build the booth. I have the compressor and gun.

My main problem now, is I have this cue, with this crap on it, that I don't think is going to fully cure, and afraid to try to take It off , because I got a feeling I know what kind of problems may occur, and I don't have room to cut it out.

I always learn the hard way, Is there any other

Anyway thanks Again, and good to have you here.

Greg

Greg, you say your using a urethane finish, are you talking about a two-part urethane auto finish or poly-urethane? Real big difference. Two-part urethane is chemically set off but poly is air dried and I have never had luck using it in humid conditions on anything. On oily woods, especially Cocobolo the wood has to be sealed with something as the oils in the wood mix with what ever finish you use and changes it's chemical make up. When I tried using an Ultra-Violet sealer on Cocobolo I could actually see the oils mix with the sealer before it went thru the light. I could take a rag and take a swipe down the cue and it would have a red and yellow coloring to it from the oils. I don't like super glue for a finish as it makes the wood have a dead look. You could get it very shiny but the wood underneath just doesn't look good. I do use it sometimes on Maple shafts to seal before putting a finish over it as phonelics especially need something for the finish to bind to. I, of coarse spray everything and use a two-part sealer that works very good but if you can't spray it puts you at a disadvantage. Chris Hightower says that he uses some sort of dipping finish that works well for him. Perhaps you should talk to him and see what he seals with and about his dipping finish.
Dick

 

[Cue Crazy]

Greg, you say your using a urethane finish, are you talking about a two-part urethane auto finish or poly-urethane? Real big difference. Two-part urethane is chemically set off but poly is air dried and I have never had luck using it in humid conditions on anything. On oily woods, especially Cocobolo the wood has to be sealed with something as the oils in the wood mix with what ever finish you use and changes it's chemical make up. When I tried using an Ultra-Violet sealer on Cocobolo I could actually see the oils mix with the sealer before it went thru the light. I could take a rag and take a swipe down the cue and it would have a red and yellow coloring to it from the oils. I don't like super glue for a finish as it makes the wood have a dead look. You could get it very shiny but the wood underneath just doesn't look good. I do use it sometimes on Maple shafts to seal before putting a finish over it as phonelics especially need something for the finish to bind to. I, of coarse spray everything and use a two-part sealer that works very good but if you can't spray it puts you at a disadvantage. Chris Hightower says that he uses some sort of dipping finish that works well for him. Perhaps you should talk to him and see what he seals with and about his dipping finish.
Dick

Yeah, I used a one part spar on this one, because altough the cue came out very well, I had one inlay that was slightly off, therefore will not sell, just use Myself, and was'nt picky about the finish. I just wanted to get something on there so I could test the hit, and see if i like the joint the way I modified it, so i knew if I wanted to use that style on the cues i need to put joints in still. Needless to say, That was A mistake . Everything on the cue cured fine except the coco & ebony which only makes up a small part of this cue. The oils in those do pose a problem it seems.

The 2 part is the way to go, but I was trying to hold out for a turbine type setup, and until I get My booth setup. We are planning on selling, and buying a larger piece of land, to have a nice big shop put on, but I've been trying to hold out till then. I think I'm going to go ahead and build a small wall hanging booth, and hang in My small shop for now, because I do have some cues that are going to need finished before too long here, and I want to do those right. Once i'm setup should be fine, because altough not a expert or anything yet, I have sprayed before outside of cues. I already know around what pressure I need, so just need to figure the tip size out for the application.

I have the scoop on what 2 part clear to use, but need to find out what sealers I can use with them, that work on these woods also. I researched some last night that are used By luthiers, but all one part sealers unfortunately, and not what I'm looking for. There was some decent waterborns also, but been down that road already, and don't really want to go back.

I Only build a few cues, the repair keeps me too busy to do more then that, but still going to go to the 2 part. the booth side- I have found the filters, and duck work, but need to find a suitable exaust motor.
A 2part sealer as you mentioned is another thing I need, but not sure where I should be looking, in the automotive industry, or woodworking industry for that, because i assume it needs to work with the auto clear to adhere properly.

There are several products, and I've thought about dipping, even had a autobody guy tell me he knew a guy that built cues, and dipped in a auto clear of all things. It just seemed like a waste of material, for the few cues I build.

Seems like Chris has used several finishes, but not sure which he prefers, or how they worked out for him.

Well anyway, this is My last real big hurdle to get over, so once I get setup, and get My method down, I should be able to get By with what I have for a while, besides setting up for easier tasks I want to do.

I'll figure it out eventually I've been through almost everything else, and gained some knowledge from it, as I know what they are good for, and what they're not good for. I guess that's the good I've found in the experience If there was any. Nothing wrong with learning the hard way, just gets old after a while, and time to move on for me.

Anyway Thanks for the advice Dick, I do really apprietiate it. Sure I'll have a few questions for you once I'm setup. I am going to have to go this way, because It makes the most since, and tired of fighting the uphill battle .

Thanks again, Greg

 

[Cue Crazy]

Dick, I guess this is along the same lines of what you mentioned, and Apparently, if I'm getting the correct info in researching It, what is actually taking place here is- The oils in those woods retard the finish's natural ability to absorb O2, which is needed for the chemical reaction that dries/cures It in some finishes. Without the sealer, then The oilier the wood, the longer the drying time. This would explain why the maple,veneers,inlay material, metal rings,phenolic, and all dried perfectly. ebony, rosewood and/or cocobolo fall in the list of oily woods.

Does'nt seem in my situation with this one, that It will even fully cure, but I'll let It take It's sweet time anyway before I strip It.

There are 2 type products I just found that are supposed to seal this problem. 1 of them is a 2 part, and probably hold up well, but not sure about darkening effects. The other is a one part, that would probably atleast stay on the lighter or clearer side, but only backed 3 years to hold up.

I want what ever's the most durable I can find, without changing the tones in the cue as much. Going to research some more, the hits on a google search were many. I'll pass It on If I find anything good.