Tips of english or stroke?

[Bambu]

The following diagram might make you rethink never considering what amount of english you need. In the diagram below, you have to shoot the 4, then the 5. The 7,8 &9 were left out because they don't matter right now. How do you know how much spin or reverse to put on the cb to be sure to hit the 5 after making the 4?

Shots like this is where it really pays off knowing what does what. Here, a stun shot will bring you across to the side pocket. We want to come down 2 diamonds past the side. So, all you have to do is set up for a stun shot, and then add two tips of left english. You will come right into the 5 to break it out.

CueTable Help

2 tips of spin at different speeds would yield different results. So would 2 different cues, or tables, or 2 different players.... so I dont see that shot as being so cut and dry. What if the cluster was only an inch or so lower or higher? Would you need to adjust by another half tip? Nothing wrong with that if that works for you, but I tend to go by feel and speed. Meaning that if the cluster was an inch or 2 lower I may hit softer to open up the angle(as opposed to more english). More draw would also open up the angle.

 

[Wolven]

Got to agree with Bambu. Neil's tips of english mean nothing. How big were those tips anyway?

 

[Neil]

............

 

[Jaden]

You don't even need spin there...

Got to agree with Bambu. Neil's tips of english mean nothing. How big were those tips anyway?

That is a perfect shot for draw induced side spin... You draw the shot hitting it firm enough to follow the tangent until it makes contact with the rail, the draw in combination with the friction from the firmer hit will put outside spin on the ball and it's much easier to be consistent with than using outside, especially in regards to pocketing the ball.

Jaden

 

[theUBC]

stroke or tips of English

In my opinion a reproducable stroke comes first.
When we know exactly what happens with each kind of stroke with different speeds that we use, without applying English, we are ready to work on the effects of side.
As we know, different cues/shafts have different amounts of deflection.
This is why a lot of people think it is all about feel.
True is that we have to know the cue we are playing with and how it reacts. But when we know how to allow for the curve of the cue ball for different strokes and speeds, we are able to predict quite exactly the results
with ANY cue.
All we got to have is knowledge.
I like to describe the amount of English by looking at the face of the cue ball like on a clock.
When we know where the cue ball will go without applying English at speed x we can predict where it will go with applying English at speed x. We should work on a certain shot with applying English always at the same spot (hour) For follow shots each hour on the clock of English that we apply means for the cue ball's path to go longer 1 diamond on the long rail or two diamonds on the short rail. This is equal to ca.15°.
The same is true for draw strokes. We need to know where the cue ball will go to without applying English at speed x.Then we will be able to predict it's path when applying English. Here again one hour of English is equal to 15°. When using a stun the effect of English is two times bigger than on follow or draw strokes. This means that if we know the outcome of the cue ball for a stun shot and we add half a tip of outside English (this is when the innside of our ferule is right on line with the center of the cue ball) the cue ball path will go 1 diamond further on the long rail or two diamonds on the short rail. (again this is equal to ca. 15°)
Sure we have to use the same speed and stroke as before without applying English...and if we are able to make contact with the object ball at the intended spot.
In the SEE-SYSTEM I explain this in detail. In the video trailer you can get an impression of it.
In case you are only interested in the section "playing perfect position" please go to 8:26 min in the trailer.
Here is the link: http://infinite-billiards.com/en/SEE.html
scroll down and then click on video trailer.
Hope that helps!

EKKES:thumbup:

 

[h4xs4w]

Correct me if I'm wrong...

But I recall reading that a "tip of english" is the size of the contact patch, the area of the cue tip that contacts the CB. And the contact patch remains the same, regardless of actual tip diameter, due to the curvature of the CB. If no one can validate this off the top of their head, I'll start digging, but I'm fairly certain that is correct.

This gives a definitive point of reference from which all other variables (cloth speed, ball speed, rail resiliency, etc) can be accounted for and factored in. If you know exactly what 3 tips of english will do to the CB on your home table, then you can compare the results on a different table, and make quick, accurate adjustments. Stroke speed being constant, of course.

 

[3kushn]

As I explained earlier, they are the width of the chalk mark left on the cb. Next time I see Buddy Hall, I'll tell him that his method means nothing. Sorry it's over your guys' heads. But, it works great for playing shape. Of course, you have to have a repeatable stroke. Otherwise, you are just banging and hoping.

But, you are right, in that they mean nothing. That is, is you don't have enough sense to get on a table and try it. Easier to just act like a troll and condemn something just because I said it. Easy to see who the trolls on here are that don't want to improve their game and try something new to them, they just want to say it won't work. I really don't know why I bother posting anything on here anymore.

Gee Wiz Neal, Why would I want to know numbers, angles,speed control and uncompromising tip placements if my FEEL SYSTEM works when I'm Feelin good.

I'd write a book on My Feel System but havn't been feelin too good lately.

 

[TheThaiger]

I agree with you on the lower levels, but I think once learned properly, english should be used often because it increases your room for error on potting and speed and angle control. Of course even very high level players don't go far out on the cue ball very often, but most top players spin a good percentage of their shots in even when they don't need to because it has more room for error and you can control which side the error is on.

I watch a pro practice quite regularly and he uses English on EVERY shot, but only a little. The way he floats the ball around the table with no effort and just a little spin is extraordinary.

 

[JB Cases]

Whenever there is a discussion about a particular spin shot, the terminology for the amount of english needed is usually given as one tip, two tips, half of a tip, etc. While this is a good indicator of the amount of spin you need to pocket the ball, is this what every player does?

IOW, does each player actually place their tip at these cueing increments on the cue ball? Or do they take the amount of tips info and use their stroke to accomplish the needed amount of spin while staying close to center cue ball?

Over the years I've noticed that as the caliber of play rises, cue tip placement starts to occupy the center or base of the cue ball. With BHE or similar methods the stroke comes more into play while applying spin. Rarely do I see a top player on the edge of the cue ball unless they usually address it that way, ala Busty.

Please don't answer this post with a lesson on what the correct procedure is for imparting spin on the cue ball or why staying close to center is better. The question is meant to analyze and open a discussion on what we think we do versus what we really do or should look at doing. I have my own method, but would like to hear what others perceive they do.

Best,
Mike

I am assuming that when you say use your stroke you are referring to getting more rpms on the ball?

If so then if you are shooting a cut shot to the corner and you have to bring the cue ball off one rail to a certain spot then are you saying that the question is whether to apply the spin either through going farther away from center or staying closer to center and hitting it harder?

I think it depends on what you are comfortable with and what the options are. Sometimes you can get to a spot a couple different ways and sometimes there is only one way that works.

I think that any good player knows, at least in theory, the various paths and how to hit the cue ball to get there. I say in theory because although one can see the path the player isn't always skilled enough to hit the cue ball in the right spot with the right amount of speed/spin.

I don't think in terms of "tips of english" when I play. I just know that x-amount takes me to x-place for most shots. Sometimes I am way off but most times I am at least able to send the cueball in the direction I thought it should go. When I teach I speak in terms of "tips of english" because it's pretty easy to understand and easy for a student to fine tune their application by looking at results.

If I say to the student hit it with 1.5 tips of right with medium speed and the cue ball will go here then they can figure out pretty quickly how much 1.5 tips is for them with the cue they have. Then I might say ok try it with 1 tip and a touch harder and show them that they can get to the same location with a little more rpms.

 

[Mitchxout]

Tips of english seems pretty self explanatory to me. But if it's hard to understand, thinking in percentages might be more clear.

I've seen pros do everything imaginable. Line up center, low, high, side, then hit it who knows where. In fact, one great player I know swears he can draw with centerball. At least that's where he thinks he hits the cueball.

 

[Mikjary]

I am assuming that when you say use your stroke you are referring to getting more rpms on the ball?

If so then if you are shooting a cut shot to the corner and you have to bring the cue ball off one rail to a certain spot then are you saying that the question is whether to apply the spin either through going farther away from center or staying closer to center and hitting it harder?

I think it depends on what you are comfortable with and what the options are. Sometimes you can get to a spot a couple different ways and sometimes there is only one way that works.

I think that any good player knows, at least in theory, the various paths and how to hit the cue ball to get there. I say in theory because although one can see the path the player isn't always skilled enough to hit the cue ball in the right spot with the right amount of speed/spin.

I don't think in terms of "tips of english" when I play. I just know that x-amount takes me to x-place for most shots. Sometimes I am way off but most times I am at least able to send the cueball in the direction I thought it should go. When I teach I speak in terms of "tips of english" because it's pretty easy to understand and easy for a student to fine tune their application by looking at results.

If I say to the student hit it with 1.5 tips of right with medium speed and the cue ball will go here then they can figure out pretty quickly how much 1.5 tips is for them with the cue they have. Then I might say ok try it with 1 tip and a touch harder and show them that they can get to the same location with a little more rpms.

Exactly my point. And I would add that for the advanced player, not a beginning student, they wouldn't even need to hit the ball any harder to get more spin. Spin is a concept after learning how to use it.

If you (collective, not John) think only in tips of english on basic shots, you limit your game to large, imprecise position zones and limited object ball paths with throw. The stroke can provide the touch necessary to fill in the gaps between "tips".

If you don't believe this is possible, try lagging the cue ball to the other end of the table and have it stop on the short rail. Now shoot the lag again and have the cue ball come back to you, like lagging for the break. How did you figure out how hard to hit the cue ball? The same way you figure out how much to spin the cue ball on a draw shot, or high right, etc...with your stroke.

I am not downplaying the concept of "tips" as unnecessary. Rather, it is a useful tool for getting in the ballpark for directing your cue ball. You can effectively figure out the cue ball path according to your stroking abilities.

The use of tips is needed when you have a shot like a kick, a bank or just to play postion. The idea of how much the cue ball will travel off a rail or how much a ball will throw, among many situations is fairly diagrammable and reliable. The tips needed is a good foundation for these calculations and should be a guide when you're shooting, but the actual movement as your game advances, should be accomplished with your stroke.

Best,
Mike

 

[Wolven]

Neil, I probably phrased it in a way to make you go off a little. Since, I have taken shots at you this one is a freebie.

Some things we quantify in order to teach but they are not exact, just like Bambu said.

Everything will be dependent on condition of rails, cloth, humidity, etc.
Speed of stroke is different for different people, tips are different for different people.
Even the way you go into the CB can be different from person to person.

I believe we hit so many shots that sooner or later we have a huge number of reference positions from which to draw upon and extrapolate.

If I’m shooting a shot like this or any other shot of similar nature the thinking goes something like this and none of it is verbal or exactly quantified:

I see the cluster.
I see CB, OB, Pocket in whatever the order.
A desire to break the cluster comes over.
Natural CB rebound suggest itself in the form of a picture.
A feeling comes to open or close the angle.

The amount of spin and speed is just a feeling and quantity is a little more or a little less.
There is a subconscious feel of relationship between the spin and speed. Instinctively I will pick amount of spin for the speed that I want to shoot it with..

I picture the OB going into desired part of the pocket and a CB rebounding from rail and breaking the cluster at desired spot.

I cannot tell you number of tips, or part of OB ball that CB will hit.
I know CB will hit somewhere that will make the OB go into the pocket. The CB will hit the rail and break the cluster.

In other words I picture what I want to do and then it happens.
Everything is a feel.

BTW.
Even banking systems are just references after a while you don’t think of the references you just put it in hole.

 

[Mikjary]

I grabbed two screens of it; one on his final warmup, and one just at contact. He is quite far above the center on the ball. I was just curious to see what you were describing but unfortunately the poor quality of the video might make it harder to pin down just where he hit on a smaller screen.

Interesting amount of deflection in the shot though.

Thanks for the pictures. I can find more examples. The problem is the picture quality and poor vantage points involved.

I chose this example for one reason...his follow through. He doesn't drop his elbow and lift his tip for the force follow. He is cueing above center (remember I said a half tip or so), but not as much as some posters have said. I knew he was possibly gaining forward spin with the distance between balls, but his cue ball is almost airborne, I believe.

He strokes down through the cue ball. I started a thread previously about this stroke with few takers. Instead of disagreeing it's not possible, why don't we discuss it and take a closer look at the video? It's not the first time I've seen this. I've discussed it privately, at length with players and have not come up with an answer yet.

Ask yourself this question...have you ever hit a ball with a small amount of follow or draw and had it really take off? You probably cued close to center and were surprised with the results. Where did all that come from? You just laughed and went on to the next shot scratching your head.

Why can't you repeat those results? If you could, you might play like Efren, right? Is it in the stroke or cue tip placement?

Best,
Mike

 

[Jaden]

You can draw with center ball....

Tips of english seems pretty self explanatory to me. But if it's hard to understand, thinking in percentages might be more clear.

I've seen pros do everything imaginable. Line up center, low, high, side, then hit it who knows where. In fact, one great player I know swears he can draw with centerball. At least that's where he thinks he hits the cueball.

centerball relative to the table, not to the angle of the cue.

reverse spin or draw is achieved by hitting the ball below center relative to the plane of the stroke, not to the table, that's how people put draw on a ball when they jump it.

You can elevate the cue slightly and hit center ball and get draw out of it because of this.

Jaden

 

[LAMas]

Mike said:
"...I've studied video and broken down several different strokes the top players are using and found the poster child for this cueing technique to be Efren. We all know his ball spinning capabilities and have watched him get into some pretty tough position zones."...

I too studied Efren when he shot for a couple of years at the Hardtimes. I marveled how he was able to get top, draw and extreme english with his effortless stroke. He holds the butt very loosely and sends the cue forward without imparting much, if any, influence from his "grip". It's almost like gliding the cue forward to contact the CB with only the inertia of the cue. He can do this with a short follow through for slow shots and a longer follow through for more power.

He can get an inordinate amount of english regardless of the speed of the hit. I just figured that he didn't kill the hit by applying a stiff stroke into the CB. It was like the tip of the cue contacted the CB precisely and moved out of the way without added influence imparted to the CB.

A word that was often shared by Efren and his compadres from the Philipines was "spin" and they were able to get that CB spin to the rail with amazing results.

 

[onepocketron]

I use all parts of the cue ball. From center ball to extreme english. It depends on the lay out of table and the specific shot. I am definitely not afraid to get way out on the cue ball if that is what is required, you just have to compensate.

 

[JB Cases]

centerball relative to the table, not to the angle of the cue.

reverse spin or draw is achieved by hitting the ball below center relative to the plane of the stroke, not to the table, that's how people put draw on a ball when they jump it.

You can elevate the cue slightly and hit center ball and get draw out of it because of this.

Jaden

I don't believe it. Can we see a video demonstration of this?

Actually, drawing the ball on a jump shot still requires that the cue ball is struck below center. I would need to see some convincing video evidence of someone hitting center ball and getting draw on a jump shot. Landing on the object ball does not count.

 

[poolplayer2093]

I don't believe it. Can we see a video demonstration of this?

of course you don't

 

[JB Cases]

of course you don't

Do you believe it?

 

[3kushn]

Do you believe it?

I do.

The location of dead center changes with the elevation of the cue.

Try to hit the same spot you would hit with a level cue while your cue is vertical (masse).
We all know you can get some draw with a vertical cue.

I think you must have miss read Jaden's comment.