Tips of english or stroke?

[Ratta]

Hi all,
interesting thread again

The eye-opener for me was, when someone showed me how precise you can play just using the vertical axis on the cueball. To just vary on the vertical axis including using different speed/acceleration was very impressive for me while seeing it the first time. He showed me kind of *wagon-wheel drill* and i immediatley wanted to start with it- then he also immediatley said: Stop "Fast Eddie" (lol), first you have to understand and master the principles of the tangent-line, then we can start with practicing those things....and in between you should try to get a more repeatable stroke.. From that day on i was infected by the knowledge-virus, hrhr. Remember often that day.

Since then i try to use almost everytime *the vertical axis*. I m using 5 points as a reference on this vertical axis for my game. If i m forced to use also english, i try to just use that much english as i know exactly what the cb will do while makin 100% sure to make the ball. I am anyway a believer and fan of using natural paths for the CB- makes me feelin good to know what happens and having the control, too.
Hit and hope i really hate

If it s about kicking, then i use of course also several points. 1/2 tip, 1 Tip and 2 tips of english. these 3 points are enough for me, to be able to use the *systems* i usualy use.

lg from overseas,

Ingo

 

[Ghosst]

The interesting thing about all this is where he addresses the cue ball to get the amount of spin he does. I've watched him get force follow just above center cue ball a half tip or so. How is this possible?

Do you have a video of this shot?

 

[Apocalypse2017]

How many contact points are there(center circle) on the CB in the first photo?

Would a 2 be considered staying near the center of the CB and a 5 be extreme?

 

[Wolven]

I don't like verbal commands while playing. It seems like a distraction.

So, it is always a little more or a little less, whatever feels right.

All thinking is in terms of pictures, not words.
If I want a ball to go somewhere I picture it going there and then it does.
The cueing spot on the CB kind of suggests itself.

I will cue all over the CB, but when the game is important it is as close to the center as possible.

 

[Mikjary]

Do you have a video of this shot?

Let me try to find it.

Best,
Mike

 

[The Renfro]

How many contact points are there(center circle) on the CB in the first photo?

Would a 2 be considered staying near the center of the CB and a 5 be extreme?

I would think 2 would be conservative and playing close to center... I will use 3 as my max usually... 4 I think is extreme and 5 has miscue allllll over it.....

 

[victorl]

To the OP,

With perfect timing (and a softer tip), it's possible to get tons of follow shooting half a tip or less from center ball. Same goes for sidespin as well. Its hard to put into words, but you stroke softly, and the impact feels very light, like you're pushing through the cue ball, not hitting at it.

The spin that you get from this kind of stroke is "heavier" than the kind of spin generated from shooting 2 tips off center, so with running english for example, the cue ball will still be spinning even after 3 or 4 rails.
That's the kind of spin that Efren generates with his stroke.

 

[Mikjary]

Take a look at 4:30 on this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dY9fKKXfp6M

He's shooting off the rail, but he hits the cue ball close to center and gets good follow.

Best,
Mike

 

[Nick B]

Yes but he's elevated and thus the center point is pivoted and the table looks fast. The cue ball went a long way after the spin is done.

Nick

Take a look at 4:30 on this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dY9fKKXfp6M

He's shooting off the rail, but he hits the cue ball close to center and gets good follow.

Best,
Mike

 

[Bob Jewett]

Take a look at 4:30 on this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dY9fKKXfp6M

He's shooting off the rail, but he hits the cue ball close to center and gets good follow.

Best,
Mike

I don't think I can see where he hits the ball with that camera angle and resolution. Also, he is far enough from the object ball that the table will give him some follow.

In any case, you determine the ratio of spin to speed of the cue ball by how far from center you hit. At the instant the cue ball leaves the cue tip, the "quality" of the spin (by which I mean that ratio) is determined entirely by how many tips of spin you are using.

 

[Jaden]

absolutely...

Hi all,
interesting thread again

The eye-opener for me was, when someone showed me how precise you can play just using the vertical axis on the cueball. To just vary on the vertical axis including using different speed/acceleration was very impressive for me while seeing it the first time. He showed me kind of *wagon-wheel drill* and i immediatley wanted to start with it- then he also immediatley said: Stop "Fast Eddie" (lol), first you have to understand and master the principles of the tangent-line, then we can start with practicing those things....and in between you should try to get a more repeatable stroke.. From that day on i was infected by the knowledge-virus, hrhr. Remember often that day.

Since then i try to use almost everytime *the vertical axis*. I m using 5 points as a reference on this vertical axis for my game. If i m forced to use also english, i try to just use that much english as i know exactly what the cb will do while makin 100% sure to make the ball. I am anyway a believer and fan of using natural paths for the CB- makes me feelin good to know what happens and having the control, too.
Hit and hope i really hate

If it s about kicking, then i use of course also several points. 1/2 tip, 1 Tip and 2 tips of english. these 3 points are enough for me, to be able to use the *systems* i usualy use.

lg from overseas,

Ingo

As I stated in my other post. using just center ball, tangent and follow or draw you should be able to put the cueball almost any where on the table.

If you understand the effects of striking the ball harder with draw or follow, and the tangent line, you can even get sidespin on the CB from the friction with the cloth.

IMO, no one has any business practicing the higher level side spin effects before they have learned all the proper knowledge of tangent, draw and follow.

Then once you do learn to properly use side spin, restrict it's use to those shots that you TRULY need it on.

transfered spin for banks, throw for combos, changing the speed of the CB relative to the OB and vice versa to hold the CB or send it farther for a specific type of safety where you need to hold the OB; these are all valid reasons to use side spin. When balls are in the way of the natural path or even a modified path with firmness and tangent with follow or draw.

The above are REALLY rare in a lot of games. They're more common in games like one pocket and banks.

You have to use transfered side spin and insde english to get the CB out of the way and still make a cross bank in one hole. Or in banks when a ball is in the way of the natural bank angle it is necessary to use transferred spin. It is much more rare to have to do that in Nine or Ten ball.

Jaden

 

[Neil]

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[Masayoshi]

As I stated in my other post. using just center ball, tangent and follow or draw you should be able to put the cueball almost any where on the table.

If you understand the effects of striking the ball harder with draw or follow, and the tangent line, you can even get sidespin on the CB from the friction with the cloth.

IMO, no one has any business practicing the higher level side spin effects before they have learned all the proper knowledge of tangent, draw and follow.

Then once you do learn to properly use side spin, restrict it's use to those shots that you TRULY need it on.

transfered spin for banks, throw for combos, changing the speed of the CB relative to the OB and vice versa to hold the CB or send it farther for a specific type of safety where you need to hold the OB; these are all valid reasons to use side spin. When balls are in the way of the natural path or even a modified path with firmness and tangent with follow or draw.

The above are REALLY rare in a lot of games. They're more common in games like one pocket and banks.

You have to use transfered side spin and insde english to get the CB out of the way and still make a cross bank in one hole. Or in banks when a ball is in the way of the natural bank angle it is necessary to use transferred spin. It is much more rare to have to do that in Nine or Ten ball.

Jaden

I agree with you on the lower levels, but I think once learned properly, english should be used often because it increases your room for error on potting and speed and angle control. Of course even very high level players don't go far out on the cue ball very often, but most top players spin a good percentage of their shots in even when they don't need to because it has more room for error and you can control which side the error is on.

 

[book collector]

I think Simonis cloth allowed people to get closer to the center of the ball.

 

[dr_dave]

Whenever there is a discussion about a particular spin shot, the terminology for the amount of english needed is usually given as one tip, two tips, half of a tip, etc. While this is a good indicator of the amount of spin you need to pocket the ball, is this what every player does?

I personally think "tips of English" is a terrible way to describe the amount of English. Everybody seems to have a different definition for "tips;" and even if the standard definition (ferrule diameters) is being used, the actual amount of English will depend on both shaft size and tip shape. For more information and illustrations, see my January '08 and July '06 BD articles dealing with this topic. I much prefer using "percentage English" to describe the amount of English, where 100% is maximum (at the miscue limit), 50% is halfway to the miscue limit, etc.

IOW, does each player actually place their tip at these cueing increments on the cue ball? Or do they take the amount of tips info and use their stroke to accomplish the needed amount of spin while staying close to center cue ball?

I personally think about the amount of spin I need for a given shot and then place my tip at ball address (sometimes using BHE and/or FHE) to achieve the necessary tip-contact point for the desired percentage English. Then I focus on delivering the cue as straight as possible (without swoop) to achieve the desired tip contact point.

Regards,
Dave

 

[Mitchxout]

I think Simonis cloth allowed people to get closer to the center of the ball.

I agree, the balls slide more and English doesn't hook up as much.

 

[Ghosst]

I grabbed two screens of it; one on his final warmup, and one just at contact. He is quite far above the center on the ball. I was just curious to see what you were describing but unfortunately the poor quality of the video might make it harder to pin down just where he hit on a smaller screen.

Interesting amount of deflection in the shot though.

 

[Bambu]

I never consider the amount of english, I only care about the amount I need for a shot. No need for me to assign a number or name to the amount unless describing a shot to someone else. If I do that with a beginner I usually refer to tips of english, but between players its usually either alot or a little. As for use of english, the better my position the less of it I need. So much depends on the layout, the difficulty of the particular rack.

 

[West Point 1987]

Quite possibly, I am.

I think tomorrow, I will practice some sets of 9 ball using center ball to see how it works out.

This is an AWESOME drill. An old road player showed me this...said once you can do this (run a rack of 9Ball with nothing but center ball), then you're ready to really learn the game. It's a lot tougher than most people think. He also tended to just dribble balls in (they never hit the back of the pocket). It was actually quite beautiful to watch.

 

[Neil]

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