Willie Mosconi - I've got a secret
- Thread starter Cameron Smith
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A video is worth a thousand words.
A video where one can get multiple views (multiple shots) of Mosconi's slip stroke, is in this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qRKw56oAA-E
On every shot where Mosconi's grip hand is visible, watch closely -- you'll see it. Except on slow, "touch" shots, Mosconi almost always implements a slip stroke, where, on the final delivery stroke, the grip hand slides back a few inches, and then delivers the cue through, straight as an arrow. Mosconi's is actually the straightest slip stroke I've ever seen (and yes, I saw him play in person). In the overhead camera view of other slip-strokers, like Cowboy Jimmy Moore, you can see the "wobble" in the cue during the slip-and-regrip phase. Not so with Willie's slip stroke!
As Rich93 says, it's a modest slip stroke (when compared to long slip-strokers, like Cisero Murphy or Cowboy Jimmy Moore), but it's definitely noticeable. Videos are indeed worth a thousand words.
-Sean
Exactly. What's interesting is he used a cue with a wrap, not as easy to use the slip stroke as without a wrap.
The people who claim they saw him play and he didn't have a slip stroke weren't paying attention.
Sadly no, I went looking for it later to post but alas to no avail. I can't remember if someone posted it on AZ before, but I couldn't find it in the search function. And It's not coming up on youtube. If I come across it, I'll post for sure.
Tony:
That's correct. And not to get too far off track, but it deserves mention, is a trick that old-timers used to do -- beyond roller-pressing the Irish Linen -- was to press a flat piece of Ash wood against the Linen as the cue is spun on a lathe. This "burnishes" the Linen such that it is very slippery, more so than just roller-pressed. The reason is precisely to accommodate slip-strokers. On some videos of Cowboy Jimmy Moore, you can actually hear his slip-and-regrip phase -- it makes a "zzzzzip!" sound, just like a lower-pitched version of when a guitarist slides his/her fretting hand on the guitar strings to reposition for the next chord.
Wrapless cues are actually somewhat difficult to do a free-and-easy slip stroke on, because the skin of the hand actually tends to "bond" or stick onto the glossy surface of the cue. You actually have to fully let go of the cue and "catch" it during the slip-and-regrip, which introduces an undesirable wobble and loss of accuracy. A material that doesn't stick to the skin -- like cloth -- is much better for a slip stroke.
-Sean
That is what I thought.
I need to look at those videos of Willie in their entirety. I had not noticed the slip stroke before.
I need to look at those videos of Willie in their entirety. I had not noticed the slip stroke before.
Sean - I am somewhat confused. I am aware you are an accomplished player.
Now I learn you are familiar with the delivery of Jimmy Moore,
the definition of a slip stroke. How can you think what Willie did is
even slightly close to Jimmy's stroke?
As I have pointed out more than once - Willie would at times adjust
his hand back on the cue a bit. Perhaps this was due to the fact he
held it so far forward. He advised your forearm should be perpendicular
at the end of your backstroke - not at contact.
But anyway, the way Willie hit the bal 99% of the time, was just not a
slip stroke.
Jimmy Moore - never saw him in person, but a few times on film/tape.
Obviously a slip stroker, seems like every time.
Dale
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Even in the videos he's not slip stroking. On *a couple of shots* he does a last minute grip adjustment. On the vast majority of shots his grip does not move from forward of perpendicular.
Lou Figueroa
saw him play
*in person*
several times
"priceless"
I looked at the video again, and could not see a slip stroke either.
Some folks always want to take the one or two instances of his adjusting his grip and turn it into a slip stroke. My personal guess is that he did that because he was always forward of perpendicular and on some shots -- where he had to reach a bit or use a longer bridge -- he was shooting so fast he had just run out of time to adjust and, to not interrupt the flow, he'd squeeze in the grip adjustment right before pulling the trigger.
For whatever reason some guys are misinterpreting that, while even on the videos anyone can clearly see he only does it in a few instances. How anyone can turn that into "Mosconi used a slip stroke" is beyond me.
Lou Figueroa
Dale, Lou:
I can only reply quickly, since I'm at work at a customer site and can't view any YouTube videos due to this company's firewall policy. (The reason why I say this, is because I'd like to show you, at certain time-marks in the video, what I'm about to explain to you.)
Both of you correct me if I'm wrong, but if Willie "adjusts his grip" on the delivery stroke itself (or "squeezes it in" as Lou refers to it), isn't that the very definition of a slip stroke? In the video link I shared above, in the occasional shots where Willie's grip hand is visible, several of them show a "grip adjustment" on the delivery stroke itself. It's mild (only an inch or two), but it is there.
In fact, the forward-of-perpendicular thing is the common setup for a slip-stroke, since it requires "room ahead of time" for the grip hand to slip backwards. I used to use a slip-stroke, Lou, before I converted to a snooker style. I even wrote-up a "Slip-stroke HowTo" here on AZB itself.
Are you guys taking the slip-stroke as a negative thing, or something? If so, I don't know why; several of the greats in our sport's history used it -- Jimmy Moore, Cisero Murphy, Cornbread Red, Johnny Ervolino, etc. Slip strokes come in all shapes and sizes -- in fact, the first three names I mentioned had long unmistakable slip strokes; Ervolino had a short, compact slip stroke that you had to watch carefully to see, but it was definitely there. And all three had their setup forward of perpendicular.
So if Mosconi had the same thing -- setup forward of perpendicular, and "last second grip adjustment" on the delivery stroke -- what's the big deal with recognizing it for what it is, a slip stroke?
Later on, if I get some time where I can sequester myself in a quiet place (away from prying eyes that will tattle "our consultant is watching pool videos"
), I can go through the video and time-mark the instances I'd like to point out to you?
Let me know what you think. And, as always, I mean this respectfully for civil debate. So don't get your hackles up because we're talking about the revered deity, Mr. Willie Mosconi!
-Sean
I can only reply quickly, since I'm at work at a customer site and can't view any YouTube videos due to this company's firewall policy. (The reason why I say this, is because I'd like to show you, at certain time-marks in the video, what I'm about to explain to you.)
Both of you correct me if I'm wrong, but if Willie "adjusts his grip" on the delivery stroke itself (or "squeezes it in" as Lou refers to it), isn't that the very definition of a slip stroke? In the video link I shared above, in the occasional shots where Willie's grip hand is visible, several of them show a "grip adjustment" on the delivery stroke itself. It's mild (only an inch or two), but it is there.
In fact, the forward-of-perpendicular thing is the common setup for a slip-stroke, since it requires "room ahead of time" for the grip hand to slip backwards. I used to use a slip-stroke, Lou, before I converted to a snooker style. I even wrote-up a "Slip-stroke HowTo" here on AZB itself.
Are you guys taking the slip-stroke as a negative thing, or something? If so, I don't know why; several of the greats in our sport's history used it -- Jimmy Moore, Cisero Murphy, Cornbread Red, Johnny Ervolino, etc. Slip strokes come in all shapes and sizes -- in fact, the first three names I mentioned had long unmistakable slip strokes; Ervolino had a short, compact slip stroke that you had to watch carefully to see, but it was definitely there. And all three had their setup forward of perpendicular.
So if Mosconi had the same thing -- setup forward of perpendicular, and "last second grip adjustment" on the delivery stroke -- what's the big deal with recognizing it for what it is, a slip stroke?
Later on, if I get some time where I can sequester myself in a quiet place (away from prying eyes that will tattle "our consultant is watching pool videos"
), I can go through the video and time-mark the instances I'd like to point out to you?Let me know what you think. And, as always, I mean this respectfully for civil debate. So don't get your hackles up because we're talking about the revered deity, Mr. Willie Mosconi!
-Sean
How is "re-adjusting his grip" as he pulls the trigger any different than a slip stroke?
I used a clipping tool to catch the first shot after the break. It has a slow motion and a replay button:
http://bit.ly/rHcOgV
He turned his wrist out at the end of the stroke.
In these two clips he swings his elbow out on the follow through:
http://bit.ly/s5S84U
http://bit.ly/t5lrTn
I used a clipping tool to catch the first shot after the break. It has a slow motion and a replay button:
http://bit.ly/rHcOgV
He turned his wrist out at the end of the stroke.
In these two clips he swings his elbow out on the follow through:
http://bit.ly/s5S84U
http://bit.ly/t5lrTn
Dale, Lou:
I can only reply quickly, since I'm at work at a customer site and can't view any YouTube videos due to this company's firewall policy. (The reason why I say this, is because I'd like to show you, at certain time-marks in the video, what I'm about to explain to you.)
Both of you correct me if I'm wrong, but if Willie "adjusts his grip" on the delivery stroke itself (or "squeezes it in" as Lou refers to it), isn't that the very definition of a slip stroke? In the video link I shared above, in the occasional shots where Willie's grip hand is visible, several of them show a "grip adjustment" on the delivery stroke itself. It's mild (only an inch or two), but it is there.
In fact, the forward-of-perpendicular thing is the common setup for a slip-stroke, since it requires "room ahead of time" for the grip hand to slip backwards. I used to use a slip-stroke, Lou, before I converted to a snooker style. I even wrote-up a "Slip-stroke HowTo" here on AZB itself.
Are you guys taking the slip-stroke as a negative thing, or something? If so, I don't know why; several of the greats in our sport's history used it -- Jimmy Moore, Cisero Murphy, Cornbread Red, Johnny Ervolino, etc. Slip strokes come in all shapes and sizes -- in fact, the first three names I mentioned had long unmistakable slip strokes; Ervolino had a short, compact slip stroke that you had to watch carefully to see, but it was definitely there. And all three had their setup forward of perpendicular.
So if Mosconi had the same thing -- setup forward of perpendicular, and "last second grip adjustment" on the delivery stroke -- what's the big deal with recognizing it for what it is, a slip stroke?
Later on, if I get some time where I can sequester myself in a quiet place (away from prying eyes that will tattle "our consultant is watching pool videos"
Let me know what you think. And, as always, I mean this respectfully for civil debate. So don't get your hackles up because we're talking about the revered deity, Mr. Willie Mosconi!
-Sean
You actually had me on the "civil debate" thing for half a second until the "revered deity" and ";-)". Regardless, here is what I am saying and about as far as I'm willing to go on this and then you guys can continue the "civil debate' on your own.
My opinion as to whether Willie Mosconi used a slip stroke is based upon seeing him in person five times, give or take a time, in the late 60's early 70's. This was watching him play a match to 125 and then doing trick shots. My recollection is that I never saw him use a slip stroke.
I very quickly, on fast forward, just watched three videos, which I believe most of you can access one way or the other.
First, I watched Mosconi vs Caras at the Lakeshore Athelitic Club in Chicago in 1963. Caras wins 125-26. In that video I counted 18 shots where Mosconi was definitely not using a slip stroke or late grip adjustment. Six shots, where because of the camera angle, I couldn't determine what he did.
Next, I watched the Mosconi Straight Pool Break Shot video from 1980 in which he runs 28 balls. On 20 shots he does not use a slip stroke or last second grip adjustment. On seven shots the camera angle does not allow a determination. And on one shot *maybe* he does a last minute grip adjustment or slip stroke.
Last I watched the I've Got a Secret video.from '62. I counted three shots where he either did a last minute grip adjustment, or perhaps a slip stroke. On four shots he does not. And on eight shots you can't tell. On the two trick shots he shoots (six-on-one and the RR Shot) he does not use a slip stroke.
So what do you have after all that? Three, perhaps four shots on TV -- in a non-competive setting -- in which, maybe, he used a slip stroke and 42 shots where he didn't and another 21 where we can't tell (but he probably didn't), plus my recollection of his shooting over 600 balls in competitive exhibition play and however many times Dale saw him play, from which neither of us recall a slip stroke.
I don't know what was going on those three shots Maybe it was a new cue or he had just got it rewrapped and it was slippery, or the TV lights affected him, or he was just goofing. We dont know. But from the vast preponderance of evidence -- video and eye witness -- Willie Mosconi did not use a slip stroke.
Lou Figueroa
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Lou:
I was actually playfully needling you a bit with that comment and the winkie. You seem to appreciate this, based on the fact I've seen you use this same technique on others.
And, if you'll recall, I don't have a good batting record when it comes to any threads about Willie Mosconi, remember? Based on this, if you look at my comment again, you'll see that I'm sort of self-deprecating here. So relax!
As to you saying "you didn't see" a slip stroke in those three videos (including the quick snippet that JohnnyP posted), I don't know what to say. Many see a slip stroke there. You and Dale say "that's not a slip stroke." Yet, if we show you footage of Johnny Ervolino -- who had the same compact, short, modest slip stroke (not a really long, exaggerated one like Jimmy Moore or Cisero Murphy), would you say, "that's not a slip stroke" as well? I'm under the impression that slip strokes come in all shapes and sizes. Some are modest, some are pronounced, others are "slip-to-the-buttcap" extreme.
And here's another thing -- not all slip-strokers use a slip stroke on every shot. While Jimmy Moore did, Johnny Ervolino didn't. Just because one is seen as "having a slip stroke" doesn't mean they use it on every shot. It's a tool like everything else. Many of us see Willie using a very modest (and quick) slip stroke on many of the camera angles that show his grip hand. It's not a bad thing, in fact it's beautiful!
-Sean
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Most obvouisly, to anyone who has read any of my stuff, you know I don't have a problem with "needling" and appreciate the well stroked shot as much as anyone. However, please don't talk out of both sides of your mouth and tell me you want "civil debate" and then needle.
You say "many" see a slip stroke. I count a handful and I'm don't recall any of you saying you saw him in person.
You say you see a slip stroke on "many" of the shots. But you don't have "many." What you have is three shots on a TV game show. Even looking at the 1940's- 50's newsreels, you don't see "many" if any instances of a Mosconi slip stroke.
Lou Figueroa