Do you favor OPEN Play Tournaments, or Handicapped Tournaments

CocoboloCowboy said:

What is the criteria for raising a players rating under the Arizona Rating System, skill level, money winning, combination of the two or?

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The criteria is based on the players best game on the best table. Best game being 8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball. We discussed 1 pocket, banks, etc, but those are not being considered for rating of players. Best table be barbox or 9 footers.

When players are voted on to move up from 6 - 7 or 7 - 8 there isn't much case that needs to be made. But when you start talking about moving to a 9 or higher then the other factors come into play. If someone is an 8, plays 8's and above and beats them consistently, then they are looked at.

I for one was an 8 last month. I played in the Open Metro tournament and finished in the top 4 or 5 places for 6 weeks in a row. Consistently beating 9's (without the 1 game spot) and 8's. They evaluated my position play, my patterns, speed control, safety play, etc. and boom now I'm rated a 9.

When there are votes against a player moving up, it's mainly because that person/establishment hasn't seen the player in a little while, or doesn't feel they play that speed at there bar. People make cases using who they beat, number of times in the money, the improvements that are noticed, etc. etc.

This is all why it is so hard to put down the definition of each rating on a little sheet of paper. Then you are talking about rating each part of there game and giving an overall score.

ie.
Stroke: 8
Safety Play: 9
Kick Shots: 7
Draw Shots: 9
Break: 9
Jumping: 8
Pattern Play: 9
Table Awareness: 10
...(Overall: 9)

CocoboloCowboy said:

I find several of the comments above very interesting, and as I said before a very close friend of mine owned in the past (2) Pool Bar in the Valley, and also a Pool Room in Flagstaff.

He also served years ago on the Arizona Rating Committee in it early day before there were 10-1’s, and 10-2’s Ratings.

He catered his business to the 8’s and UNDER Players, Bangers, Recreational Player, or what ever you wish to call the people who are playing pool for fun.

His reasoning for this business decision was simple. His business was not a hobby, but a business he used to feed his family. His business plan accomplished that.

The NINE and Above players who seem upset that there are not more Tournament for them. I can maybe see (2) reasons. Nine and above players are the minority group of Players in the Arizona Rating Book making up what 15-20%?? of the total players under the AZ Rating System.

So why would some Room/Bar Owner want to have their 1 or 2 tournament a weeks cater to the minority group?

Last in looking at the LAST Arizona Billiards Info Newspaper on Page # 26. A total 70ish Weekly Tournaments are listed. 38 are for Rating 8 and unders. 33 are for Rating Open or 9 and UNDER. Seems like the 9’s and 10’s got plenty of opportunities to play.

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So let me get this straight...

I start out a banger and frequent a bar week in and week out to support the tournament and play pool....over time I actually practice and improve my game....Then when I start winning I am told I am now in the minority and are no longer eligable to play.

Am I supposed to sit there buy beer/drinks (some places food) and watch others play pool in a turnament that I supported and helped to keep going on a weekly basis???

That sounds like a light bulb theory to me.....Use it up and throw it away.

I am sure that is NOT the "intent" of the bar room pool room owners, but...(here we go again)....that is what the current system causes to happen.......It causes a perfectly good beer drinking tab generating person that happens to get better at the game to have to go find somewhere else to spend his money......Luckily this town is a very transient town and the population is always growing and always changing as more and more people choose to re-locate to the freaking middle of the desert....

You know its hard to get a constant base of players going....Of those tournaments above, sure there are MANY to choose from...But what happens when you show up an no one is there..you go someplace else next week......When you actually find a decent run tournament in a "safe" facility you tend to go back there on the regular.......(until your told you are "in the minority" and are no longer eligable to play)

There is a bar on the West Side that has an 8-ball tournament every sunday...(sure its only a race to 2 but they only have 2 tables)...But...they always get 12-20 players and they are not a part of the ratings system, it is a open to anyone tournament....and no one cares if the same person wins every week for 6 weeks straight.....Frankly only a few of them even know the rataings system exists.

And just so you don't think I am "hiding" any info from you...It is at 75th ave & Peoria (Neighbors Bar)...sign ups are at 3pm and they start around 3:30pm (Every Sunday)...Just ask for Chuck or Tim... (Chuck usually runs the tournament)...You can even tell him I sent you...

CocoboloCowboy said:

You have made an ASSUMPTION about my Practicing.

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I'll also assume I can give you the 8 ball.

You sir, do not have a winner's mindset.

Russ

as a solid c, maybe low b player I prefer open tournaments. The ones I really like are when guys that play shortstop speed come. It still is fun, and if I beat one of those guys it makes the day worthwhile.

CocoboloCowboy said:

Never assume anything as I think you are proposing a gambling game, and I do not gamble. I only play in small local tournaments, with entry fees of 11 BUCK MAX.

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You still want a spot in an $11 tournament?

Roger Long said:

I had 3 games on the wire in a race to seven. Pretty disgusting, don't you think? I had no business even being on the same table with the guy. I could never beat him straight up in a longer race. To me, it's sad when champions have to give up so much weight just to be allowed to play in little handicapped tournaments.

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Maybe you woud have beaten him straight up on that day. But you'll never know, which really sucks.

open

For me personally I like tourneys to be open.I am not one of the top players in my area but I like to try to beat the best.

I can definitely see why room/bar managers would want to have a handicap system.

IMO if a player is good enough to make a living milking local tourneys more power to him/her.If I am employed and enjoy competing at pool I don't mind donating a few bucks to the top players(its better then donating more then a few bucks by trying to match up).

I do sometime win a small tournament but probably only make the money 40% of the time.

I think if a rating system will bring more local tournaments with larger entry fees and bigger payouts I am all for it.

Rumor has it that a local guy (who some think of as a scumbag) recently won $750.00 in a bar tourney and did not spend a dime in the place...not even for a soda pop.

Its such a simple solution! Everybody wins, well sort of. The advantage to a handicap T is it draws more players. Thats what every room needs!
All you have to do is handicap the T's properly. The stronger playes give a little weight. Not nearly enough to actualy make it even, but just enough so the weaker player can win a couple games and if he plays his absolute best might actualy win a match against a top guy. Every handicap T I have ever played was like this and it works great. The players are ranked a,b,c A gives b the 8. A gives C the 7. B gives C the 8. the stronger player still has the nuts. The tourny's are filled and everybody is happy.
Like I said simple!

CocoboloCowboy said:

Depending upon who I play in that $11 tournament I maybe get or GIVE the spot as you call it under our State Rating System (Arizona) that most tournaments in Arizona are run under.

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Well....Ray's gone.

With only Stevie left now.....

11 bucks...and you want the nuts too?

You keep all this up, and I'm personally going to start a Coconut Cowboy "learn to play pool" collection fund. Just for you.....

Would you play in one of the Az Desert Classic Tour tournys with a paid spot??

I don't think so.....

Quit worrying about the Az rating system, and get out and beat SOMEBODY. Sooner, or later it HAS to happen.


Come on out from under that rock.....

Why all the hatred??

I've been in Az for 20 years and there was a rating system here when I arrived. Unless someone was a player before this system was in place then they have grown in the game under this system. Our system IMO has led to the great tournament mecca that we have here. Go to other places and see how little choice they have!

So for 99% of the players in our area you have reaped the benefits of the system many of you seem to be dogging! I just don't get it. If you don't like the system then get involved in it and work to change its' shortfalls.

There is no need to jump all over someone because they want to play in a handicapped tournament. Not everyone wants to nor may they have the time, money and/or ability to play at a higher level. We need to have all of the involvement of all the players to keep and hopefully grow what we have. How each person chooses to spend their money effects what we have here, and $11 plus transportation plus food and/or drinks is an outing. Who are anyone of us to badmouth someone for how they spend THEIR money. You want someone else to see how you budget? Who are you .... "big brother". WTF do you listen to yourself?

Nothing wrong with handicapped tournaments as long as the handicap is fair. When I first started playing pool again after a 30+ year layoff I entered a local 9 ball handicapped tournament. My first match my opponent had to explain the rules to me and I was giving him a game on the wire.

grindz said:

I've been in Az for 20 years and there was a rating system here when I arrived. Unless someone was a player before this system was in place then they have grown in the game under this system. Our system IMO has led to the great tournament mecca that we have here. Go to other places and see how little choice they have!

So for 99% of the players in our area you have reaped the benefits of the system many of you seem to be dogging! I just don't get it. If you don't like the system then get involved in it and work to change its' shortfalls.

There is no need to jump all over someone because they want to play in a handicapped tournament. Not everyone wants to nor may they have the time, money and/or ability to play at a higher level. We need to have all of the involvement of all the players to keep and hopefully grow what we have. How each person chooses to spend their money effects what we have here, and $11 plus transportation plus food and/or drinks is an outing. Who are anyone of us to badmouth someone for how they spend THEIR money. You want someone else to see how you budget? Who are you .... "big brother". WTF do you listen to yourself?

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No hatred from me, the guy asked what people preferred and I explained that I like open tournaments and why I liked them. That was when I was asked to again explain my why, which I did. He doesn't understand my point of view as I do not understand his. I don't play in tournaments to make money, I play in them to challenge myself and compete. I like to see where I stand with good players, thats a good way for me to gauge where my game is. I have a job, thats what I do to make money.
I never badmouthed anyone in this thread either.

thebigdog said:

No hatred from me, the guy asked what people preferred and I explained that I like open tournaments and why I liked them. That was when I was asked to again explain my why, which I did. He doesn't understand my point of view as I do not understand his. I don't play in tournaments to make money, I play in them to challenge myself and compete. I like to see where I stand with good players, thats a good way for me to gauge where my game is. I have a job, thats what I do to make money.
I never badmouthed anyone in this thread either.

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I'm not pointing at anyone in particular, just a group of people that love to hate, and that feel that certain targets are okay to gang up on and bully.

In an on line forum it can be too easy to get negative. The discussions on this forum can be amazing and can open up this sport in fantastic ways! I can only imagine how much my game would have progressed 30+ years ago with all of this information!

I would like to see the vitriolic posters just agree to disagree if they can't imagine seeing anything other than their own paradigm. Just my .02

Anyone out there agree?

td

Grindz...

I agree with your last post and the one previous....

There are handicapped tournaments and there are OPEN tournaments in town.
Right now we can choose which ones we want to play in. It's great to have the options and so many tournaments to choose from!

thebigdog said:

You still want a spot in an $11 tournament?

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