Do you favor OPEN Play Tournaments, or Handicapped Tournaments

[bullshooter69]

Some places you will not get any entrys unless the tournament is handicapped. Sometimes its the only way for people to improve. If they go play an open tournament and its winner break they never get to shoot so they get disapointed and never come back. I do think that some Tourn. directors don"t no how to handicap. Most of the time the same players win anyway and if they raise their handicap they just pic up their game. Instead of raising the big dog handicap lower a few who never get in the money.

 

[MOJOE]

I definitely prefer OPEN tournaments. Even in the leagues that I participate in are non-handicapped. That's how I like to play and the victory is much sweeter against a stronger opponent if it is non-handicapped. That's why I love to play pool, to go at it to see what I am capable of.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

How true! I did once prevail over a U.S.Open champion in a handicapped tournament and it's nothing that I'm proud of because I didn't actually beat him, I just got past him.

Getting past people is not a bad thing, being sent home is. BTW Roger how much weight did you have.

 

[Roger Long]

Getting past people is not a bad thing, being sent home is. BTW Roger how much weight did you have.

I had 3 games on the wire in a race to seven. Pretty disgusting, don't you think? I had no business even being on the same table with the guy. I could never beat him straight up in a longer race. To me, it's sad when champions have to give up so much weight just to be allowed to play in little handicapped tournaments.

 

[grindz]

IMO handicap tournaments get more people to play the game. More people = more grassroots support = more money = more tournaments = more people that want to give it a try = better publicity = more money = bigger and better tournaments = better players and on and on it goes....

td

 

[grindz]

Open Rating
Mon - 5
Tue - 4
Wed - 3
Thur - 3
Frid - 3
Sat - 3
Sun - 7

9 & Under (B+ and Lower)
Thur - 1
Frid - 2
Sun - 2

8 & Under (B and Lower)
Mon - 3
Tue - 4
Wed - 2
Thur - 3
Frid - 1
Sat - 7
Sun - 2

7 & Under (C+ and Lower)
Mon - 1
Tue - 0
Wed - 0
Thur - 3
Frid - 1
Sat - 3
Sun - 3

6 & Under (C and Lower)
Mon - 1
Tue - 1
Sun - 1

Dang, I thought I was a B+ and you've got me at a B Can you make yourself (9) an A- so I (8) can be a B+?

 

[Snapshot9]

Okay

but does someone that is a rated 4, and has been for ages, who actually improved to a 6, deserve to win handicapped tournaments as a 4?

The lower handicapped players improve their game faster amd more than top handicapped players. 2-3 changes in a lower handicapped player's game can raise them up a ball or two, plus practice.

TD's have a tendency to leave someone at their handicap FOREVER, when many of them have raised their game, and should be raised in handicap, to keep it fair to everyone in the tournament. But, unfortunately, some TD's don't care about fairness across the board, they have their own motives.

I prefer Open tournaments. At least when I am done, I know exactly where I stand.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

Open Rating
Mon - 5
Tue - 4
Wed - 3
Thur - 3
Frid - 3
Sat - 3
Sun - 7

9 & Under (B+ and Lower)
Thur - 1
Frid - 2
Sun - 2

8 & Under (B and Lower)
Mon - 3
Tue - 4
Wed - 2
Thur - 3
Frid - 1
Sat - 7
Sun - 2

7 & Under (C+ and Lower)
Mon - 1
Tue - 0
Wed - 0
Thur - 3
Frid - 1
Sat - 3
Sun - 3

6 & Under (C and Lower)
Mon - 1
Tue - 1
Sun - 1

Dang, I thought I was a B+ and you've got me at a B Can you make yourself (9) an A- so I (8) can be a B+?

The above is an EXAMPLE of the Arizona Rating System. Rating Number Range from Four to Ten Minus Two.

Four means you might know which end of the Cue to apply Chalk too.

Ten Minus Two Means your ARE on the Pro Circuit or should be.

Think Zero to Eight would be easier to understand, but I can only ASSUME for Political correct Reason you would not want to Rank a Novice a ZERO case it might hurt their feelings.

 

[stuckart]

but does someone that is a rated 4, and has been for ages, who actually improved to a 6, deserve to win handicapped tournaments as a 4?

The lower handicapped players improve their game faster amd more than top handicapped players. 2-3 changes in a lower handicapped player's game can raise them up a ball or two, plus practice.

TD's have a tendency to leave someone at their handicap FOREVER, when many of them have raised their game, and should be raised in handicap, to keep it fair to everyone in the tournament. But, unfortunately, some TD's don't care about fairness across the board, they have their own motives.

I prefer Open tournaments. At least when I am done, I know exactly where I stand.

This is always going to be an issue if you play at places that don't respect the ratings. Atleast here in AZ, the TD's or someone at each bar is on the Rating Committee. They can re-evaluate people at any point and raise them up. First in-house and give them a new rating card. There are quarterly meetings where people get together to discuss ratings. We are working on a plan to make the ratings public quicker, but for the time being it is what it is. You'll always have sand baggers. Also, if more bars participated in the rating committee there would be less complaints. The entire state uses the ratings for there tournaments but there are only 10-20 places that actually contribute back.

 

[stuckart]

Our numbering system works for number of games to play.

If I ran a 9 & Under tournament and got 10 people I might play full races. Meaning, race to your full handicap. 9's go to 9, 8's to 8, etc. This makes it harder when you want to shorten races.

If I ran a 9 & Under tournament and got 32 people I might want to shorten the races. Then I'd do a Handicap-3. 9's go to 6, 8's go to 5, etc. etc. And then throw a minimum number on there. Say 4 is the lowest.

Obviously the 1st scenario benefits the higher rated players, but the second shortens the tourney and intrigues the 6's, 7's and 8's to come and compete.

Estimated conversions:

10 - 2 A+
10 - 1 A
10 A-
9 B+
8 B
7 B-
6 C+
5 C
4 C-
3 D

The minus people actually minus from there opponents score.

if a 10-1 and 9 match up, the 10-1 goes to 10 and the 9 goes to (9-1) = 8.

 

[BRKNRUN]

I want to be able to not ever practice, not have any idea where the CB is going...(or OB for that matter)...never pick up a cue until the tournament, show up drink 5 beers (or more) and get sloppy drunk and fire combos on the 9-ball every shot no matter how the balls lay in hopes of making 3 so I can ruin the night of the A player that spends and/or has spent hours a day studying the game and practicing for years to perfect his technique.

That sounds like fun for all!!!!!!

That is about what the AZ rating system promotes...Can you blame the bars for wanting that...Heck no...Obviously you’re going to sell more beer to players that don't need to actually "perform" on the table...

If a 10 drinks during a tournament, the beer takes him off his game and he is no longer able to perform as a 10...guess what...He still has to play as a 10...

A 7 never has to practice...can get as drunk as he wants and have a good ol time...and he still will play 7 speed...in some cases 6 speed.....

Oh...eventually that 7 wins enough that they raise him to an 8.....Then he can only get moderately drunk and still be able to win....Then they make him a 9 and guess what...you better stay sober if you want to have any chance of winning....and you now actually have to go out and learn how to play.....: eek:: eek:

Bottom line Mr. Cowboy....(you older and wiser man)

You get out of this game what you put in....Johnny Archer has put in 1000s more hours at this game than you...and he deserves to run you over like a freight train.

Last Monday I got ran over by a 10 rated player 7-0....The match took all of 20 minutes...and that was because I was putting the stall rack on him to slow down his rhythm......But Frankly...that guy has been putting in tons of hours on the table and he deserves to be playing that good...I did not put in any hours and I deserved to get run over....That does not mean I get to whine and say what a ***** it is to never even get to shoot more than a kick shot the entire set... All it really means is I need to practice my kick safes....

I won't say you don't practice...what your practicing is a different story...You may be practicing the wrong things.... I GUARANTEE you are not putting in what it takes to get better....You have WAY too many posts on WAY too many threads that tells me your time is being spent in other places than the pool table...

Frankly I am surprised a "wiser older man" like you have proclaimed yourself to be would even start a thread like this... If I remember correctly it was you that said to just let those of us that just want to have fun have fun... Just go have fun and leave well enough alone.

You views are quite skewed on many things.....You claim 10s don't drink....Well look above and maybe you will understand why they don't drink during tournaments....and perhaps maybe look a little deeper at if they drink "after" tournaments or in between tournaments.

The bars in this town will always favor this system....It is (probably unintentionally) designed to let people get drunk and compete with people that actually practice and study the game.........It is NOT going to promote anyone to actually get better at the game.....Again...good for the bars it sells more beer....Yeah Beer!!!

I am going to add this to my signature just for you....

"Reading your posts is like hearing about a train wreck...You know it's going to be bad...but you just have to look"


BTW: Older does not always = Wiser

 

[tucson9ball]

handicaps

I don't like handicaps! If I have to win 7 games and my opponent only has to win 3 and he slops in the 9 then snaps it in on the break, how do I like my odds? I could win 6 to his 3 and I lose I prefer to just be outplayed and lose because the other player won more games than me.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

This is always going to be an issue if you play at places that don't respect the ratings. Atleast here in AZ, the TD's or someone at each bar is on the Rating Committee. They can re-evaluate people at any point and raise them up. First in-house and give them a new rating card. There are quarterly meetings where people get together to discuss ratings. We are working on a plan to make the ratings public quicker, but for the time being it is what it is. You'll always have sand baggers. Also, if more bars participated in the rating committee there would be less complaints. The entire state uses the ratings for there tournaments but there are only 10-20 places that actually contribute back.

Well stuckart as I understand it you are a member in good stand in the current Arizona Rating Committee. So I will pose two questions to you.


1. Why is not the criteria for setting each rating not available to ever player in Arizona in Black & White. So when some one asks a Member Bar/Room Td/Committee Member what is the Criteria for being given say a 7 Rating. The Criteria can not be produced in writing.

today a chart, or piece of paper can not be produced explain what the criteria is for each rating from 4-10 MINUS 2. I know this as I have ask for such information several time, only to be told it don?t exist.

2. Also why is not the criteria for raising a players rating again not available to ever player in Arizona in Black & White. So when some one asks a Member Bar/Room Td/Committee Member what is the Criteria for having a rating raised.

What is the criteria for raising a players rating under the Arizona Rating System, skill level, money winning, combination of the two or?




LAST THOUGHT........Maybe if the inner workings of the Arizona Rating System was more out in the open in Black & White, and information was available. Then maybe there would be more continuity in its operation, and interpretation from room, to room, and bar to bar. Just my two cent on the subject.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

I want to be able to not ever practice, not have any idea where the CB is going...(or OB for that matter)...never pick up a cue until the tournament, show up drink 5 beers (or more) and get sloppy drunk and fire combos on the 9-ball every shot no matter how the balls lay in hopes of making 3 so I can ruin the night of the A player that spends and/or has spent hours a day studying the game and practicing for years to perfect his technique.

That sounds like fun for all!!!!!!

That is about what the AZ rating system promotes...Can you blame the bars for wanting that...Heck no...Obviously you?re going to sell more beer to players that don't need to actually "perform" on the table...

If a 10 drinks during a tournament, the beer takes him off his game and he is no longer able to perform as a 10...guess what...He still has to play as a 10...

A 7 never has to practice...can get as drunk as he wants and have a good ol time...and he still will play 7 speed...in some cases 6 speed.....

Oh...eventually that 7 wins enough that they raise him to an 8.....Then he can only get moderately drunk and still be able to win....Then they make him a 9 and guess what...you better stay sober if you want to have any chance of winning....and you now actually have to go out and learn how to play.....: eek:: eek:

Bottom line Mr. Cowboy....(you older and wiser man)

You get out of this game what you put in....Johnny Archer has put in 1000s more hours at this game than you...and he deserves to run you over like a freight train.

Last Monday I got ran over by a 10 rated player 7-0....The match took all of 20 minutes...and that was because I was putting the stall rack on him to slow down his rhythm......But Frankly...that guy has been putting in tons of hours on the table and he deserves to be playing that good...I did not put in any hours and I deserved to get run over....That does not mean I get to whine and say what a ***** it is to never even get to shoot more than a kick shot the entire set... All it really means is I need to practice my kick safes....

I won't say you don't practice...what your practicing is a different story...You may be practicing the wrong things.... I GUARANTEE you are not putting in what it takes to get better....You have WAY too many posts on WAY too many threads that tells me your time is being spent in other places than the pool table...

Frankly I am surprised a "wiser older man" like you have proclaimed yourself to be would even start a thread like this... If I remember correctly it was you that said to just let those of us that just want to have fun have fun... Just go have fun and leave well enough alone.

You views are quite skewed on many things.....You claim 10s don't drink....Well look above and maybe you will understand why they don't drink during tournaments....and perhaps maybe look a little deeper at if they drink "after" tournaments or in between tournaments.

The bars in this town will always favor this system....It is (probably unintentionally) designed to let people get drunk and compete with people that actually practice and study the game.........It is NOT going to promote anyone to actually get better at the game.....Again...good for the bars it sells more beer....Yeah Beer!!!

I am going to add this to my signature just for you....

"Reading your posts is like hearing about a train wreck...You know it's going to be bad...but you just have to look"


BTW: Older does not always = Wiser

Ken I do not want you to think I did not read what you wrote above, but as you did not reply to my PM's over the weekend, I will not reply to you.

 

[LoReNz]

i prefer open tournament. lol... bcoz some handicap system is BS. and, im a weak spot player, meaning i cant play good that much if i spot somebody. id rather play even

 

[stuckart]

The bars in this town will always favor this system....It is (probably unintentionally) designed to let people get drunk and compete with people that actually practice and study the game.........It is NOT going to promote anyone to actually get better at the game.....Again...good for the bars it sells more beer....Yeah Beer!!!

I agree with most of what you wrote except this statement. I know a bunch of people that play more and work on improving there game against higher rated players, because they can get some weight and can see the pressure put on some better players.

We've discussed on many nights how we lost to some 6 because they slopped in a 9 and got one on the break. But when I was a 7, and when I was an 8, I would learn a ton by being up on higher rated players and watch them buckle down and try to fight back. This improved my game greatly. And I think it improves more peoples games than you think.

 

[stuckart]

Well stuckart as I understand it you are a member in good stand in the current Arizona Rating Committee. So I will pose two questions to you.


1. Why is not the criteria for setting each rating not available to ever player in Arizona in Black & White. So when some one asks a Member Bar/Room Td/Committee Member what is the Criteria for being given say a 7 Rating. The Criteria can not be produced in writing.

today a chart, or piece of paper can not be produced explain what the criteria is for each rating from 4-10 MINUS 2. I know this as I have ask for such information several time, only to be told it don?t exist.

There use to be a paper. I have seen it a few times and I've requested a copy from Larry at Northern Lounge. One of the reasons it's not a big deal to have in every bar is that you can't just judge a players rating by a definition on paper. It is not going to define if players play the right patterns or shape. It was very general between the two. Roger Long has tried to duplicate something that was close to the black & white here.

2. Also why is not the criteria for raising a players rating again not available to ever player in Arizona in Black & White. So when some one asks a Member Bar/Room Td/Committee Member what is the Criteria for having a rating raised.

What is the criteria for raising a players rating under the Arizona Rating System, skill level, money winning, combination of the two or?

This has been discussed at meetings, but it's not going to solve anything with some people not able to rate people accurately. It's not an easy thing to do, especially if you are reading some definition on paper. A player could be great at jump shots, get out of a few racks in a row but still not be rated as high as someone else who has the same results. There are right and wrong ways to shoot shots, lessor players play more lucky outs. You can't judge a persons stroke on paper.

And there would be more continuity between bars if all owners would volunteer there time to make this work instead of just sitting back and letting others do it and then complaining about it. The guys from Tucson make the trip every meeting, the chairman forks out all the money on his own, there is no money taken in, people volunteer there time to make this work. Most bars just take advantage and then complain.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

There use to be a paper. I have seen it a few times and I've requested a copy from Larry at Northern Lounge. One of the reasons it's not a big deal to have in every bar is that you can't just judge a players rating by a definition on paper. It is not going to define if players play the right patterns or shape. It was very general between the two. Roger Long has tried to duplicate something that was close to the black & white here.

I have looked at the stuff on Roger's Web-site titled. ?Arizona Ratings Converted to The National Scale? it is a little vague, plus runs 2 to 10-2, not 4 to10-2. I have seen or should I still have in my procession a copy of something called, ?RATING SCOPE?. Where the skills for Platers Rated 4-10 are defined in Black & White. It fit on (1) Sheet of 8-1/2? x 11? Paper and could be post in all Bar/Room after being updated to include the 10-1?s, and 10-2?s.

This has been discussed at meetings, but it's not going to solve anything with some people not able to rate people accurately. It's not an easy thing to do, especially if you are reading some definition on paper. A player could be great at jump shots, get out of a few racks in a row but still not be rated as high as someone else who has the same results. There are right and wrong ways to shoot shots, lessor players play more lucky outs. You can't judge a persons stroke on paper.

This is why I feel something need to be in Black & White, as a GUIDE for all Rating Committee Members, and Players alike. So a Rating has something in Black and White to justify it.

And there would be more continuity between bars if all owners would volunteer there time to make this work instead of just sitting back and letting others do it and then complaining about it. The guys from Tucson make the trip every meeting, the chairman forks out all the money on his own, there is no money taken in, people volunteer there time to make this work. Most bars just take advantage and then complain.

Well in reading the report on the last Rating Committee Meeting in the NEW[/b] Valley billiards News. It appeared attendance at the last meeting was a little thin.

I understand that currently there are like 8-10,000 NAMES listed in the Arizona Rating Book, but lately many tournament around the Valley have very poor turnout, or like one place in Glendale that I have been to 3 times in the last 60 days. Never ot the number for a tournament.

I think there is a shift of Tournament Players Rated 4-8, to Leagues that appear to be building, and as I said a lot of the weekly smaller tournament seem to be not happening even though they are scheduled.

Let me ask another question again that appears to be missed from the above post.

What is the criteria for raising a players rating under the Arizona Rating System, skill level, money winning, combination of the two or?




P.S. Thanks for your reply.

 

[BRKNRUN]

I agree with most of what you wrote except this statement. I know a bunch of people that play more and work on improving there game against higher rated players, because they can get some weight and can see the pressure put on some better players.

We've discussed on many nights how we lost to some 6 because they slopped in a 9 and got one on the break. But when I was a 7, and when I was an 8, I would learn a ton by being up on higher rated players and watch them buckle down and try to fight back. This improved my game greatly. And I think it improves more peoples games than you think.

IMO - That had nothing to do with the system, that had everything with your desire to get better.


The problem is that a majority of the tournaments are for 8s and under.

This makes sense from a business standpoint in that that is the biggest group of players and of course will get the better turn outs (to a point)

A majority of that group don't want to bother with practice or competing agianst better players because they know they don't have to.....The "system" allows that to happen....

The bigger problem is that for those players like yourself, and myself, we have to try to get better by playing in "something and unders" were the top talent is usually tapped out at the 8 rated player....Eventually you learn how to beat the 8 rated players.....Then when you are bumped to a 9 (No Mans Land I call it)...Your options become very limited...And what is worse is your not fully prepared to compete against a 10 rated player since you have been winning because the other players you have been playing miss frequently giving you many more opportunities at the table than you would get against a (true) 10 rated player...

I say (true) 10 rated player, because the system has been so diluted that now a 10 rated player is only considered equivalent to an A rated player.

Back when the rating system was first developed a 10 rated player was easily an A+ player....these days you actually see 10 rated players miss and/or make mistakes on farily routine run outs....I blame this on the system....

I think that if 10 years ago they had installed a graduated entry system instead of the ratings system...This town would have just as many pool players, and would probably have a lot more depth of talent.....and the bars would not "lose" their beer drinkers when they get bumped and are no longer eligable to play there.

It is only recently in the last few years since the inception of the Arizona All Around that the true 10 rated players have resurfaced with any numbers... Prior to that they were very thin becuase ther really was nothing to play in ....Now you ARE seeing some players (like yourself) that are working hard on their games so they can compete at that level.

But don't kid yourself...The "system" did not drive you to get better....That drive came from within....

 

[FLICKit]

IMO - That had nothing to do with the system, that had everything with your desire to get better.

Of course for some people their desire to get better is re-enforced by playing within the system. In either case, there will always be a personal desire as well, so there's no argument there.

The problem is that a majority of the tournaments are for 8s and under.

There are a lot of 8 and under tournaments... Agreed

The bigger problem is that for those players like yourself, and myself, we have to try to get better by playing in "something and unders" were the top talent is usually tapped out at the 8 rated player....Eventually you learn how to beat the 8 rated players.....Then when you are bumped to a 9 (No Mans Land I call it)...Your options become very limited...And what is worse is your not fully prepared to compete against a 10 rated player since you have been winning because the other players you have been playing miss frequently giving you many more opportunities at the table than you would get against a (true) 10 rated player...

There's a bit of irony in your statement here, which may not be evident, or one may not want to admit. But, if you don't have the ratings system, then you will be competing straight up against other players. Now, with the rating system you say 8's and under can compete with their group or lower and they're happy. BUT, when you become a 9, they are now competing in basically OPEN level tournaments, much similar to what would happen if there was no rating system at all. And you say they don't like that.

From your perspective, I understand, you are saying that 9's don't like "no man's land" because they used to be able to compete happily in 8 and under tourneys.
From the alternative perspective though, 9's can now compete in the OPEN tournaments, which is exactly what they'd do if there was never any 8 and under tourneys. Yet you're saying that the 9's don't like that OPEN format.
Why would lesser players like it any better? Any 8 & under is always still welcome to compete in the Open tournaments, if it attracts them.

If you're saying that 8's and under won't compete in Open tournaments, because something else is attracting them more... then I'd agree. It's great to have them doing so, and it's great that they have a choice.

I say (true) 10 rated player, because the system has been so diluted that now a 10 rated player is only considered equivalent to an A rated player...

Now, if you want to talk about the accuracy of the rating system, then that's a different issue, which has been discussed about multiple times. If we are able to find and implement better solutions that are workable to do...
Until then, it's the best we've got...

I think that if 10 years ago they had installed a graduated entry system instead of the ratings system...This town would have just as many pool players, and would probably have a lot more depth of talent.....and the bars would not "lose" their beer drinkers when they get bumped and are no longer eligable to play there.

If the graduated entry system is truly better, then it would have better results. People wouldn't compete in 8's and unders, if the graduated system was better, they'd go to the graduated system. But, if they like something else better, then the proof is in the pudding. I have seen graduated entry system tournaments around town... If better, they will prevail. If not they will fail...

It is only recently in the last few years since the inception of the Arizona All Around that the true 10 rated players have resurfaced with any numbers... ....Now you ARE seeing some players (like yourself) that are working hard on their games so they can compete at that level.

From one perspective, that's proof that the system is currently working, at least in this regards.

But don't kid yourself...The "system" did not drive you to get better....That drive came from within....

As has been stated, for some people their desire to get better is re-enforced by playing within the system.

The system is the way it is because people/bar owners have had ideas, and then did work to implement those ideas to provide something which they believed in. The system not only works for the players, but for the bars as well. If someone has ideas of how to make it better, then the proof will be in the people/bar owners who do the work to implement those new ideas which they believe in. If your system will bring bar owners more money (the success of the bar/pool hall is always a vital element in the equation, especially in these tight times), then they will come on board and take care of the players accordingly, as long as they will reap the success.

Without the bar/pool hall being successful, the pool player will never have anything.