Pro One vs TOI

Gerry Williams

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As many of you know I have been working with Pro One for about 4 months and I love the consistency it provides, I have posted numerous videos detailing this.

I am interested in seeing some of the TOI folks posting videos of their success with the system. I have my opinion but I am always open to seeing things in action before passing judgement.

Gerry
 

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
As many of you know I have been working with Pro One for about 4 months and I love the consistency it provides, I have posted numerous videos detailing this.

I am interested in seeing some of the TOI folks posting videos of their success with the system. I have my opinion but I am always open to seeing things in action before passing judgement.

Gerry

I would just like to see a video of someone running a rack with TOI.:smile:


Anthony
 

2107

Banned
Guys you should let this thread fade away. It will not be good for everyone involved to compare them against each other. You know what will happen! Learn them both and find the answer yourself, I have. Don't be posting uninformed opinions as facts, that has been the history of these systems on here.
 

8pack

They call me 2 county !
Silver Member
Guys you should let this thread fade away. It will not be good for everyone involved to compare them against each other. You know what will happen! Learn them both and find the answer yourself, I have. Don't be posting uninformed opinions as facts, that has been the history of these systems on here.

This is a forum,you do these type of things here.(voicing your opinion):smile:
Gerry plays the game well and I for one wouldnt mind hearing what he has to say.

Anthony
 

ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
Gerry,

The thing to keep in mind is that TOI is not an aiming system IMHO & CJ has often said that it is not about aiming at any contact points etc.

It is more of a style of play. I can use TOI & not 'aim' the way CJ does with it. Others are using it but still with how they basically aim.

How can it be an aiming system when all of the angles are created off of two(2) alignments by the dynamics of squirt/deflection from the dymanmics of the stroke.

I do not know much about the specifics of CTE/Pro1 but I think it has little to do with what type of stroke one uses except to hit center cue ball.

I know there can be adaptations with both for the use of english but they are not anywhere near the same to me.

I understand your desire to see if someone can do as well with TOI vs. CTE Pro1 but I think the only fair comparison at this time would be to compare CJ to Stan or his son or someone else that has extensive time with CTE/Pro1. TOI has not been out from CJ long enough for a fair comparison IMHO & it would be like comparing apples to oranges anyway IMO.

However I would like to see CJ play the top CTE/Pro1 guy who ever that might be.

Regards,
 

One Pocket John

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I must agree with English on this one. TOI is not an aiming system, its more of a feel system.

I have only been using TOI for a few months, when I say TOI I'm talking about just hitting the cue ball a touch off center to the inside of the shot.

What TOI has done for me is to take the spinning (turning) the OB where I want it to go but to rather force the OB where I want it to go.

The hard part during my time with TOI is to stop using spin to position the QB.

After spinning the QB for over 50 years it hasn't been easy, but it is coming along well.

I enjoy trying different methods of aiming. I'm waiting for Stan to release his new video so that I can give CTE a go.

By the way, you play well. I have seen your videos.

John :)
 

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In CJ's video, he is showing how to make various cuts based upon CTC or CTE and parallel shifting to the inside different amounts. If that's not an aiming system, I don't know what is. I'm not sure how it migrated from a "touch of inside" to a full tip inside but that's the marvel of CJ. :confused:
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
blend the SHOT SPEED - SHOT ANGLE - CUE BALL TARGET (TOI)

In CJ's video, he is showing how to make various cuts based upon CTC or CTE and parallel shifting to the inside different amounts. If that's not an aiming system, I don't know what is. I'm not sure how it migrated from a "touch of inside" to a full tip inside but that's the marvel of CJ. :confused:

"Aiming" implies that I'm trying to hit a certain point of the object ball, however, with TOI the target is the cue ball, I"m just aware of the object ball's presence. This is why the "feel and touch" are amplified, the visual sense has been reduced. Just like someone that loses any sense, the other one's are heightened, this is something I teach to do intentionally at different times during the shot routine.

Ball pocketing is about feel and touch, and the visual "connection" is done above the ball in TOI. The PRO 1 CTE works as an aiming system, but doesn't blend the SHOT SPEED - SHOT ANGLE - CUE BALL TARGET (TOI) into a playing system like TOI does, and an aiming system isn't supposed to. imo

Every Champion player I've been around talks in terms of feel and touch. "Feel for the pocket," "Feel for position," "Touch of english," Touch of Inside," "My touch is great today," "My game really felt good this week."

Even Shane after winning two big tournaments posted this yesterday on FaceBook.


Shane VanBoening
Sunday via mobile
won the super billiard expo and the Accu-Stats invitational tournament in 1 week. Its been a succesful trip. Going back to south dakota tomorrow. Feel like im playing good.
 
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Gerry Williams

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So if it isn't an aiming system what is it?

A lot of people claim to have success with it - I just want to see video of it in action because I just don't get how choosing to play inside on every shot is a good idea.

I am interested in the average Joe like me who may be having success with this system.

Am I missing something?

And SVB uses outside siding - I have seen it in person :)
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
Even with "inside" there's still "after contact spin," so don't let that throw you

So if it isn't an aiming system what is it?

A lot of people claim to have success with it - I just want to see video of it in action because I just don't get how choosing to play inside on every shot is a good idea.

I am interested in the average Joe like me who may be having success with this system.

Am I missing something?

And SVB uses outside siding - I have seen it in person :)

You can "throw" balls in with outside, or "veer" them in with inside, it's your choice. The major difference I've seen in my career is the practice time. I only practiced a few hours a day, with the outside technique it requires adjusting for spin and deflection, so it takes more practice to play top speed.

Here's a couple of links to using TOI...Make sure you're clear, I use TOI as my "center alignment," and usually (90%) go inside, however, when I need to spin the cue ball I do, just pivoting from the TOI position (app.10%). Even with "inside" there's still "after contact spin," so don't let that throw you off, I'm using the inside of the cue ball on 90% of the shots in these two videos. It can look deceiving, so please try the shots yourself before thinking something that might not be true.

I am completing a TOI {PIVOT} BANKING VIDEO now that shows this technique from another perspective by banking every ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RMB-Q-KbwX0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=55wfzEVJVvo
 

2107

Banned
If you 100% parallel off the 2 alignments then you have added an aiming system by "feel" to the technique. If you're not parallelling off the alignments then it becomes a debate on "how" the individual user is finding the spot on the object ball to contact. Im my opinion from following all this is that I have not read any posts from anyone yet that leads me to believe they are experienced with the TOI, this is just my opinion.
 
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nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What I understood from the TOI video, balls are pocketed purely from deflection that results from the touch of inside. There were no angles being created, the shooter is going inside parallel to the line from CTC or CTE. More angle needed, more inside needed to created greater deflection. I've tried this and can make it work on thinner cuts (from either CTC or CTE) but am unable to get enough deflection on most shots to make a 1/3 ball cut. It always seemed to me that it was necessary to create some angle, along with the TOI, for it to work. I wish this could be explicitly clarified.
 

2107

Banned
You need to ask Cj what exactly he means when he says "create an angle with the tip" I will only say so much about this and there is a lot of variables to this system.
 
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ENGLISH!

Banned
Silver Member
I am certainly not ready yet to play competitively with just TOI. I have not put enough time in with it due to my individual money league. But I can say that pocketing balls from straight in to long near 90* cuts can be made with relative ease using TOI.

That being said, I have been playing with the 'squirt'/deflection available to me with the LD shafts at hand & I am doing it from 'alignments' of more than just the two(2) alignments of CTC & CTE.

So, that being said, I would not be parallel to either of those lines but instead parallel to say a 1/4 or 1/3 ball line & then 'squirt'/deflect for more cut to the center of the pocket as the chosen 1/4 or 1/3 ball 'line' was to the full hit side of the pocket.

I have not been able to 'create' enough cut angle based on the CTC alignments for shots that need alot of 'squirt'/deflection but not as much as the CTE alignement would be.

I hope that is worded clearly.

I am heading to the hall tommorrow with my regular non LD shafts in hand to see if I can work from just the CTC & CTE alignments.

If I can not then I can only assume that there is something that is missing from my understanding or should I say I just don't yet have a 'feel' for it.

Regards,
 
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Mikjary

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The CTC and CTE initial alignment points are just that...a visual foundation to begin the process of connecting the cue ball to the object ball and the object ball to the pocket. We all do this now, but most do it poorly and without a consistent point of reference.

This is one of the reasons Pro One, through experience and using continuous consistent beginning alignments can develop into a strong shotmaking system. The TOI doesn't show you where to aim, but rather puts your eyes in a recurring position to learn where to develop the correct angle and speed to pocket the ball. Both systems require experience and a trust in your setup to allow the eyes to do their job.

Best,
Mike
 

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You need to ask Cj what exactly he means when he says "create an angle with the tip" I will only say so much about this and there is a lot of variables to this system.

Well, you didn't say anything worth hearing so in fact, you'd been better off saying absolutely nothing.
 

Chrippa

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The CTC and CTE initial alignment points are just that...a visual foundation to begin the process of connecting the cue ball to the object ball and the object ball to the pocket. We all do this now, but most do it poorly and without a consistent point of reference.

This is one of the reasons Pro One, through experience and using continuous consistent beginning alignments can develop into a strong shotmaking system. The TOI doesn't show you where to aim, but rather puts your eyes in a recurring position to learn where to develop the correct angle and speed to pocket the ball. Both systems require experience and a trust in your setup to allow the eyes to do their job.

Best,
Mike

Well said and that´s my interpret of it also. It´s in my experience a great mindset/approach to have when feeling the aim/connection, it´s simplifies the process - makes it faster imo.

I haven´t used Pro One, got the disc when it came out but put it on the shelf, hmm will look at it now I think. Anyway, one aim I think works good with TOI is Gene´s Perfect Aims, place the dominant eye over the line. Would be fun to hear Gene´s take on this.

My top speed before was quite high or actually the top was very high but of lack of consistency. Something that I have worked with the last 2 years since beginning to play more again. Checking my fundamentals on various different ways, finding my flaws - feeling them, acknowledge them and correcting them. I did however feel that I still don´t quite have it, my best speed was real good but I still felt the lack of understanding it - ok maybe I have been thinking to much about instead of just going with it but .... well that´s me:eek:. I like to figure things out, both body and soul wise.

TOI so far have given my much better understanding of things. Heavy, floating CB, holding the CB in a better and more consistent way even when a slight mishit occurs - way strong! The long draw shots that has to be so much in line to be good etc, short also for that matter. A numerous new way of consistent being able to produce new paths of the CP, - position play.
The simplify of the connection part. A easier way to find the game when being "off".
The pivoting for outside. Before I always used parallel aiming - or I would say I thought I did. I think me and most of us always have pivoted slightly before we go down - it´s natural to correct the squirt, we have done it without thinking of it.
A more compact stroke, TOI gives you this automatic - or at least it does for me.
It has also given me feedback of things that I have always felt but hasn't been able to express in the sense I can now, the squirt, the curve, the visualizing etc. I have done several of these shots before but not with the same mindset and that´s where one of the big keys lies imo.

However like all new things you start out with it has it´s bumps, my game in one way have suffered of course but I´m still hanging in there and the pieces are beginning to flow together more and more and my trust when going down is increasing all the time - of course bumps on days but in the overall it´s increasing. Heck bad play wasn´t that hard to do before either:p.
To learn to walk good took time and training and so will this, one thing for a long time player that will take some time is that you are creating (at least for me) a new PSR and the more aware you were about your PSR the harder it takes to do a new one imo. When I play bad I feel like I mix every piece of knowledge I have and it´s just getting mixed up big time and I start to loose the feel, hitting them thick, shooting real bad to sum it up:eek:.

Well what I´m trying to say is that I´m starting to find my way of "TOING", probably not exactly the way CJ does or what he feels but I´m not him either. However I will take a vid and send to him when I´m setup for it and hopefully get some more pointers so I can finetune it a bit more.

Thanks for all the help CJ, both in your posts here and in private, do keep them coming since I feel that you get better and better in explaining it. I´m looking forward to the bank/kick vid:).

Regards

Chrippa

Ps one more thing to add is that even if I have made so much crazy shots, attempts on changing stuff, playing bad I´m still happy for them because they learn me more than playing good without knowing why. In other words - What seems bad can be good in the long run, you just have to view it differently. To learn you have to take responsibility for your actions, if not we would still be crawling around on the floor instead of walking. To have the same mindset as a child when they learn new things is a blessing we all should have I think, or we do have them still but we are complicating things a bit to much I would say:eek:.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
in effect there must be two lines when you're using deflection

What I understood from the TOI video, balls are pocketed purely from deflection that results from the touch of inside. There were no angles being created, the shooter is going inside parallel to the line from CTC or CTE. More angle needed, more inside needed to created greater deflection. I've tried this and can make it work on thinner cuts (from either CTC or CTE) but am unable to get enough deflection on most shots to make a 1/3 ball cut. It always seemed to me that it was necessary to create some angle, along with the TOI, for it to work. I wish this could be explicitly clarified.

I really want to communicate what you need to hear, and it's challenging without seeing how you're aligning to your TOI position. One thing I notice often is a slight pivot to the inside, rather than a parallel shift. This will cause you to undercut the object ball unless you're trying to hit a "contact point" (from past habit), and in this case you are likely to over cut shots. I'm experienced from judging players levels for so many years {to figure out how much I could "spot them"} I can see these subtle shifts.

No matter if you use TOI or not there's certain tip movements that are just made to correct a deeper flaw. I know these players will crumble under pressure, because they're using "feel," but in a way to overcompensate for an alignment issue (in many cases). What many players will discover is they were using a variation of TOI and compensating for it, just not in a way that gave them an advantage. Often, if what you thing is happening with the cue ball and what is actually happening are two separate things.

One thing using the TOI makes you do is understand how the cue ball is moving after contact, you are forcing it to move a particular way.....for sure!!! Sometimes if you are trying to hit center you may be deflecting the ball a consistent way and not "real eyes" it and compensating really well "most of the time," and then having times where you completely fall apart.

The reason I hesitate to get too technical about the "shot lines," and how they relate to the Center/Center, or Center/Edge is because of the deflection. Personally I think more in "sight lines," than "cue lines," in other words I want my eyes parallel to the center (or edge) of the Object ball, and as long as my pivot is parallel I know I'm veering the cue ball OUTSIDE my visual line and over cutting the ball slightly more than how I"m aligned.

This is how I incorporate the '3 Part Pocket System', I'm aligning to the center of the pocket, and because the cue ball is deflecting slightly when I hit the center I know my "shot line" is aligned to the inside of the pocket. Think about it for a minute, if I'm hitting the center, and deflecting the ball, then I'm not "aiming" (unconsciously) at the center, It must be at the inside of the pocket.

When I force the cue ball too much outside the "shot line" I'll hit the OUTSIDE of the pocket. So, in effect there must be two lines when you're using deflection, one line reflects how you are set up, and the other is the line your cue ball course actually takes as it's deflecting away (outside) of the shot line.

So another way of looking at it is my visual shot line isn't straight, it veers outside of the cue line. Because there's feel involved in this I would suggest shooting balls for a solid hour (at least) and make sure you align your tip very square to the Touch of Inside point and accelerate on each shot. You should feel (it's too fast to see) the cue ball veering slightly outside the straight line of your cue (the cue must straight).

Calibrate the shot to hit the center of the pocket and if it doesn't, set it up and shoot it again. FEEL THE SHOT OVER CUTTING your "Cue Line" and you will start to experience the 3 Part Pocket System and the pockets will start "opening up". Of course the pockets don't get bigger, however, you will feel like they do as you maximize your margin of error by forcing the ball to cut into the center.

I am confident most people can utilize this system, it just takes concentrated practice for an hour or two a day (for app. 3 weeks). Working one on one I can teach this technique in 15 hours, and I will assure the TOI has lasting effects and lays a solid foundation for years to come. I am putting together a TOI Program now that will have a money back guarantee if not satisfied the TOI it will benefit your game positively.
 
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