Pro One vs TOI

[West Point 1987]

I would just like to see a video of someone running a rack with TOI.:smile:


Anthony

Here's AZB's victorl doing it with 12 balls...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNJ2Id3hNU
pretty sporty. Other than the 5 ball it's all TOI (and he could have lined up TOI and used BHE to do the same thing). I'll try and film something myself in a few days...might be tough, since the place I play really isn't conducive to setting up a camera...

 

[ENGLISH!]

Here's AZB's victorl doing it with 12 balls...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNJ2Id3hNU
pretty sporty. Other than the 5 ball it's all TOI (and he could have lined up TOI and used BHE to do the same thing). I'll try and film something myself in a few days...might be tough, since the place I play really isn't conducive to setting up a camera...

Thanks for posting that. It was good for me to see the softer speed.

Do you know if he was aligning to just the CTC & CTE?

I guess I can PM him about that.

Thanks again,

 

[West Point 1987]

Thanks for post that. It was good for me to see the softer speed.

Do you know if he was aligning to just the CTC & CTE?

I guess I can PM him about that.

Thanks again,

Rick:

I can tell you that I don't align CTC/CTE...since the very beginning, I've aligned my way, using back of the ball aiming (like I have for 25 years), but aimed slightly thick, at the near side of the pocket. After a while, it looks like I'm aiming at the same place on the OB that I always did before, but it's all "recalibrated" to account for the delfection and thick hit aim. Now I see the angle, connecting the dots between the pocket/OB/CB and just drop down into the TOI alignment. CJ is describing HIS perception of the connection/angle, as he perceives a difference between his eye line and the stick line (as I understand it, anyway). I was messing around with that the other day and I could see what he was describing, but it still "looked wrong" to me. When I'm down lined up correctly, I can visualize the CTC or CTE line, but I choose my own perception alignment, which works perfectly for me. As we've all said, TOI isn't an aiming system...it's an alignment/address system that "anchors" your stickline to the CB in an absolutely predictable and repeatable place, with all of any potential stroke/deflection error directed in one direction--toward the center of the pocket. And it's a brilliant way to control the cueball without as little spin as possible while putting collision induced spin on the OB that makes it hug rails and avoid rattling. It's also very hard to scratch with this method, as the CB post collision path is so easy to see.

I also use a light touch as well as firm touch as you see in this video...acceleration straight through the CB is the key, not necessarily a hard hit. As long as the cue is not slowing down during the stroke, the deflection will take and the TOI will work. A firmer hit needs a little thicker aim and vice versa, that takes some time to dial in. I use the L drill (15 balls lined up in a box around the corner pocket, two diamonds out, start at one end and put them all in the corner pocket in a row, without touching a ball) to test this out. It's a nightmare, but it proves TOI works with finesse as well as muscle. You have to use BHE from the TOI alignment a lot more, though, which is fine and will prove to you that you can still spin the CB if you have to off the TOI alignment and still drill the pocket.

 

[BeiberLvr]

My thoughts on TOI:

Plain and simple, it works. Have I run a rack or two only using TOI? Yep. Do I prefer it over Pro One? No, but that's just a personal preference of mine.

 

[8pack]

Here's AZB's victorl doing it with 12 balls...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNJ2Id3hNU
pretty sporty. Other than the 5 ball it's all TOI (and he could have lined up TOI and used BHE to do the same thing). I'll try and film something myself in a few days...might be tough, since the place I play really isn't conducive to setting up a camera...

Nice shooting!
I just read your other post and see you dont connect the balls like Mr Wiley does.When I use inside I connect the balls also different.
Its probably not a bad thing to set up shots and practice shooting a certain spot at the center and edge just to see what type of angles you can create.(Im all about learning the table.Why ?because it never changes.):smile:

To create a pocketing angle which the line is always changing from 0 to 90 degree's off center and edge (2spots)and 1 spot off center is a tall task in its self.(good luick to anyone going at it this way)
To me connecting to a line(pocket angle) that is changing with inside is a whole easier.

Again nice shooting.Thought you was Alex for a minute.:smile:

Anthony

 

[Gerry Williams]

It is all the marketing that makes me so skeptical - I purchased the ppv for TOI because I was curious what all the hype was about. I found it to be a waste of money...maybe it just isn't for me :roll eyes:

There seems to be a lot of talk about feel vs objectivity...you need both IMO.

 

[Ratta]

It is all the marketing that makes me so skeptical - I purchased the ppv for TOI because I was curious what all the hype was about. I found it to be a waste of money...maybe it just isn't for me :roll eyes:

There seems to be a lot of talk about feel vs objectivity...you need both IMO.

Well Gerry,

i am so often wondering how many many ppl don t worry- or how you said *not being sceptical*...no matter what is advertised here and there
I m trying to stop *wondering* that often.
Let there be many holy grals instead of one. That way far more ppl are happy than just one

lg
Ingo

 

[West Point 1987]

Nice shooting!
I just read your other post and see you dont connect the balls like Mr Wiley does.When I use inside I connect the balls also different.
Its probably not a bad thing to set up shots and practice shooting a certain spot at the center and edge just to see what type of angles you can create.(Im all about learning the table.Why ?because it never changes.):smile:

To create a pocketing angle which the line is always changing from 0 to 90 degree's off center and edge (2spots)and 1 spot off center is a tall task in its self.(good luick to anyone going at it this way)
To me connecting to a line(pocket angle) that is changing with inside is a whole easier.

Again nice shooting.Thought you was Alex for a minute.:smile:

Anthony

To be absolutely clear, the shooter in the video is "VictorL", not me (West Point 1987), and yes, he does shoot nice. I haven't video'd myself since I picked up TOI...I may try to in the near future.:smile:

 

[8pack]

Well Gerry,

i am so often wondering how many many ppl don t worry- or how you said *not being sceptical*...no matter what is advertised here and there
I m trying to stop *wondering* that often.
Let there be many holy grals instead of one. That way far more ppl are happy than just one

lg
Ingo

I often wonder how much money curiosity has cost me.

Anthony

 

[8pack]

To be absolutely clear, the shooter in the video is "VictorL", not me (West Point 1987), and yes, he does shoot nice. I haven't video'd myself since I picked up TOI...I may try to in the near future.:smile:

Sorry about that I kinda just skimmed over it.

Anthony

 

[AtLarge]

Here are my current thoughts on CJ’s Touch of Inside.

[Caveat – I have not yet viewed CJ’s TOI video. But he has discussed TOI at length on AzB.]

I feel that CJ has actually been talking about two different methods, or two versions of the method, both of which he has called TOI. (This may have caused some confusion.) I’ll call them TOI1 and TOI2.

TOI1

The Method -- For several months, CJ described TOI as, essentially, the following. Aim the OB to the full side (thick-hit side, under-cut side) of the pocket. Then, instead of aligning the stick through the center of the CB on the path that would create that slightly too-thick cut, move the stick parallel to that line and slightly inside (toward the pocket). Stroke the CB from that alignment. This will create a small amount of CB deflection (squirt/”veer”) and send the CB into a slightly thinner hit on the OB, which is intended to send the OB into the center of the pocket instead of the originally targeted full side of the pocket. The method would be used for all shots except those that are straight and those for which you want to change the angle of the CB off the cushion.

Comments – The TOI1 technique is based on two key factors – (1) some aiming method (indeed, any aiming method the player chooses) for initially targeting the full side of the pocket and (2) a small offset of the tip from center CB to create the additional amount of angle to put the OB in the center of the pocket. In a couple of places, CJ even put a number on this “touch” as being about 1/8 of a tip.

Although success with TOI1 depends on coordinating many factors – including cue speed, cue angle to table, and shaft deflection characteristics -- I believe most decent players could learn to use TOI1 effectively if they see advantages for their own game in using a more consistent stroke speed and in achieving a different way of moving the CB around the table – a way with more natural angles of the CB off the cushions because of the reduced spin on the CB after it collides with the OB (a “floating” CB, as CJ calls it).​

TOI2

The Method – About three months ago CJ began describing TOI differently, as follows. First, align or sight from the center of the CB to either the center of the OB (CTC) or the outside edge of the OB (CTE). For most shots, CTC is used for cuts up to about 30 degrees and CTE is used for thinner cuts. Then move the cue stick to the inside, keeping it parallel to that initial alignment line. The amount the stick/tip moves inside is whatever amount is needed to create enough CB deflection to achieve the proper hit on the OB to send it into the pocket. This could be a small amount of offset from center for angles close to zero with an initial CTC alignment or for angles close to 30 degrees with an initial CTE alignment. Or it could be a much larger offset to the inside for angles closer to 30 degrees using CTC or for thin cuts using CTE. [Note – I think CJ uses CTC for all cut angles if CB and OB are far apart and CTE for most cut angles if CB and OB are quite close together.)

Comments – TOI2 seems to go right to center-pocket thinking rather than first going inside enough for full-side pocketing and then adding a little more inside to take the cut to center pocket. The amount of inside offset needed for TOI2 can be much more than a little. It may be all the way to the miscue limit to create enough angle for some shots. The miscue limit is at about half the ball’s radius, or 9/16” from center. So TOI2 is a method that requires the development of an enormous amount of “feel” to hit the CB in exactly the right spot in that zone of just a little over half an inch (or less if you aren’t on the equator) to the inside from center CB to make shots at all the possible different angles from all the possible different CB/OB separations. Also, TOI2 often results in lots of spin on the CB, even after contact with the OB, with the CB checking or reversing off the first cushion rather than floating with natural in/out angles. I wonder whether any but a handful of players will be able to develop the feel to take this rather idiosyncratic method to a high level.​

When people report their experiences with TOI, or thoughts about TOI, I think it would be helpful to the readers to know whether they are talking about TOI1 or TOI2.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I picked up on that too... would love to read Cj's thoughts on that.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

 

[CJ Wiley]

This keeps me from drifting off course and start missing balls unexpectedly.

Here's AZB's victorl doing it with 12 balls...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNJ2Id3hNU
pretty sporty. Other than the 5 ball it's all TOI (and he could have lined up TOI and used BHE to do the same thing). I'll try and film something myself in a few days...might be tough, since the place I play really isn't conducive to setting up a camera...

Victorl is using TOI very well, and much like I use it, the only thing that's different is my shot speed is more consistent. I notice on a couple shots if he would have hit it slightly firmer he would have hit the center of the pocket. This is very well done though, like I've said before, with me personally, I'm always calibrating my shots to the center and don't accept anything else as "ok".

I believe if I'm not always striving to "get better," at some point I'll naturally start "getting worse". Things in the universe are constantly changing, why would I ever think my pool game is the exception?

This keeps me from drifting off course and start missing balls unexpectedly. I see this happen a lot through my life, a player will start out a set and play "jam up," then they {seemingly} for no reason start missing and not getting out. There is a reason, it's that they didn't make any adjustments or didn't have the tools necessary to make micro adjustments in their shots.

I've explained this system in many different ways, with the understanding that will all learn differently. The main theme I've repeated is YOU MUST EXPERIENCE TOI FOR YOURSELF. None of us will ever figure out how to play championship level pool from a chair, we must experience the "TOUCH" for yourselves, with a pool cue in our hand. Conceptualizing pool is fun and stimulating at times, and at the end of the day you'll still play the same if you don't put your body into motion. Lazy people "talk the talk," but seldom "walk the walk".

I ALIGN my body C/C, and C/E on every shot, my "shot line" is to the INSIDE of the pocket and I calibrate my shots to hit the center. If you use TOI the object ball is not going to hit where you're "aiming," it's going to hit on the over cut side of that line. You're really not trying to "hit where you're aiming" you're trying to force the cue ball outside that line and over cut the ball slightly.

This is what maximizes the margin of error, and gives you the FEEL of TOI. Ball pocketing is more about feeling than seeing, and this is why you must experience TOI for yourself and the DVD explains all of these things, but it's impossible to pick it all up by viewing it once. There's over 11 hours of concentrated information on the TOI VIDEO, and you will see something you missed every time you watch it for the first 5 times, I know this as true from many emails and PMs I've responded to.

 

[CJ Wiley]

that kept it exciting because I could learn something every day.

Rick:

I can tell you that I don't align CTC/CTE...since the very beginning, I've aligned my way, using back of the ball aiming (like I have for 25 years), but aimed slightly thick, at the near side of the pocket. After a while, it looks like I'm aiming at the same place on the OB that I always did before, but it's all "recalibrated" to account for the delfection and thick hit aim. Now I see the angle, connecting the dots between the pocket/OB/CB and just drop down into the TOI alignment. CJ is describing HIS perception of the connection/angle, as he perceives a difference between his eye line and the stick line (as I understand it, anyway). I was messing around with that the other day and I could see what he was describing, but it still "looked wrong" to me. When I'm down lined up correctly, I can visualize the CTC or CTE line, but I choose my own perception alignment, which works perfectly for me. As we've all said, TOI isn't an aiming system...it's an alignment/address system that "anchors" your stickline to the CB in an absolutely predictable and repeatable place, with all of any potential stroke/deflection error directed in one direction--toward the center of the pocket. And it's a brilliant way to control the cueball without as little spin as possible while putting collision induced spin on the OB that makes it hug rails and avoid rattling. It's also very hard to scratch with this method, as the CB post collision path is so easy to see.

I also use a light touch as well as firm touch as you see in this video...acceleration straight through the CB is the key, not necessarily a hard hit. As long as the cue is not slowing down during the stroke, the deflection will take and the TOI will work. A firmer hit needs a little thicker aim and vice versa, that takes some time to dial in. I use the L drill (15 balls lined up in a box around the corner pocket, two diamonds out, start at one end and put them all in the corner pocket in a row, without touching a ball) to test this out. It's a nightmare, but it proves TOI works with finesse as well as muscle. You have to use BHE from the TOI alignment a lot more, though, which is fine and will prove to you that you can still spin the CB if you have to off the TOI alignment and still drill the pocket.

Yes, you know what you're doing very well. We all are going to have our own experience using TOI, and it's an impossible task to explain something that becomes a subconscious process.

I've taken on the challenge to explain advanced pool techniques because it does things for me that nothing else will do, it teaches me how to communicate on many different levels and for a teacher this is valuable training. I did the same thing in martial arts, we dealt with 8 different styles - that kept it exciting because I could learn something every day.

I've been teaching the TOI primary for the last 2 months and It's amazing how much players improve if they believe the technique. Like anything in life there must be a level of trust to grow, even a seed must have trust to become a plant and a Caterpillar must have trust to become a butterfly.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to try TOI if they don't believe it will work for them, because they're probably right. Those that want to learn this system I've spent countless hours with, explaining, answering qustions, showing examples, demonstrating, and answering more questions.

It's worthwhile because 30% of those that I help start to improve, then they get excited about the game again. Even those of US that lost our desire to play at one time or another get inspired when they start to "real eyes" the TOI Technique.

I am the "sample example," if I had to play the "normal way" again, I would quit playing pool with absolutely no hesitation. I dislike playing pool the conventional way, yet I respect everyone that chooses to play that way. As a matter of fact, as I get back into competition I would prefer that everyone play the "conventional way," NOT the "TOI Way". 'My Game will be their Teacher'

 

[scottjen26]

The CTC and CTE initial alignment points are just that...a visual foundation to begin the process of connecting the cue ball to the object ball and the object ball to the pocket. We all do this now, but most do it poorly and without a consistent point of reference.

This is one of the reasons Pro One, through experience and using continuous consistent beginning alignments can develop into a strong shotmaking system. The TOI doesn't show you where to aim, but rather puts your eyes in a recurring position to learn where to develop the correct angle and speed to pocket the ball. Both systems require experience and a trust in your setup to allow the eyes to do their job.

Best,
Mike

Perfectly stated...
Scott

 

[CJ Wiley]

Once we figure this out, then we will understand more about the technical qualities

The CTC and CTE initial alignment points are just that...a visual foundation to begin the process of connecting the cue ball to the object ball and the object ball to the pocket. We all do this now, but most do it poorly and without a consistent point of reference.

This is one of the reasons Pro One, through experience and using continuous consistent beginning alignments can develop into a strong shotmaking system. The TOI doesn't show you where to aim, but rather puts your eyes in a recurring position to learn where to develop the correct angle and speed to pocket the ball. Both systems require experience and a trust in your setup to allow the eyes to do their job.

Best,
Mike

It's amazing how well you can play when it's learned how to tap into the unconscious mind. This is the part I'll enjoy teaching the most, but first I have to wait for everyone to have the foundation you speak of, Mike.

The fact of the matter is, I can align Center/Center on a shot 8.5 feet away and cut it as thin as it can be cut using TOI.

Try that one out and see what happens. Trust yourself and you will be about to do it. No "aiming," just get down on the cue ball aligned to the center of the object ball (TOI cue ball) and try to cut it as thin as you can.

This will happen it will make you wonder how it's even possible, then TOI will start to sink in. Pool's not about "connecting dots" or contact points or anything like that at the highest levels.....it's about releasing our minds to CREATE, and this state {of mind} allows the Game to play through us. This can't be done trying to "figure it out"....some things are better enjoyed than understood. Once we allow this to happen {through experience}, we will understand more about the technical qualities, and not until then. 'Our Game will be their Teacher'

 

[8pack]

It's amazing how well you can play when it's learned how to tap into the unconscious mind. This is the part I'll enjoy teaching the most, but first I have to wait for eveyone to have the foundation you speak of, Mike.

The fact of the matter is, I can align Center/Center on a shot 8.5 feet away and cut it as thin as it can be cut using TOI.

Try that one out and see what happens. Trust yourself and you will be about to do it. No "aiming," just get down on the cue ball aligned to the center of the object ball (TOI cue ball) and try to cut it as thin as you can.

This will happen it will make you wonder how it's even possible, then TOI will start to sink in. Pool's not about "connecting dots" or contact points or anything like that at the highest levels.....it's about releasing our minds to CREATE, and this state {of mind} allows the Game to play through us. This can't be done trying to "figure it out"....some things are better enjoyed than understood. Once we figure this out, then we will understand more about the technical qualities, and not until then. 'Our Game will be their Teacher'

You can actually be taught that?
I seen some dead stroke video's out there awhile back,wondering if thats what that was about .Should of bought them.

Anthony

 

[stan shuffett]

The CTC and CTE initial alignment points are just that...a visual foundation to begin the process of connecting the cue ball to the object ball and the object ball to the pocket. We all do this now, but most do it poorly and without a consistent point of reference.

This is one of the reasons Pro One, through experience and using continuous consistent beginning alignments can develop into a strong shotmaking system. The TOI doesn't show you where to aim, but rather puts your eyes in a recurring position to learn where to develop the correct angle and speed to pocket the ball. Both systems require experience and a trust in your setup to allow the eyes to do their job.

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike,

Years ago, my CTE work was centered around a beginning alignment. That is all it was, a pure CTE half ball alignment. From there it took a zillion moves and a ton of feel to arrive at a shot line.....In my gut, though, I knew there was more to CTE than just an objective springboard to get started...

Stan Shuffett

 

[Mikjary]

Hi Mike,

Years ago, my CTE work was centered around a beginning alignment. That is all it was, a pure CTE half ball alignment. From there it took a zillion moves and a ton of feel to arrive at a shot line.....In my gut, though, I knew there was more to CTE than just an objective springboard to get started...

Stan Shuffett

Hey Stan,

For clarity I should have qualified my statement with, "and using the correct visual set up for each shot solution". I didn't mean to say the initial alignment was all you needed. That may throw pivot systems back ten or fifteen years!

Best,
Mike

 

[stan shuffett]

Hey Stan,

For clarity I should have qualified my statement with, "and using the correct visual set up for each shot solution". I didn't mean to say the initial alignment was all you needed. That may throw pivot systems back ten or fifteen years!

Best,
Mike

Thanks, Mike! I knew what you meant. I do appreciate your clarification, though. It took a lot of work to get it all figured out. I am excited to be able to share all of my unravellings in the near future.

Stan Shuffett

Stan Shuffett