2017 Mosconi Cup - Current standings, does U.S.A. have a chance?

[bicki]

Honestly, I find it mysterious that shane has been underperforming in the MC. He definitely has rah-rah in him. However, he may needs more time to adjust to table, food, foreign country and what not than others. 9ball races to 5 or 6 under the spotlight of TV broadcast is more about break luck and nerves. Not necessarily the more gifted players wins.

As a European I obviously support the European team but I wish the MC would go closer. Having to cut the line-up in order to get to the final day is embarassing and the whole energy of the MC goes away. It needs to be close and tense. That is why the races are short. Actually, the format makes it entertaining and interesting for non-pool people.

I really hope the Americans get their act together. I am willing to lose if it gets hill:hill on the final day.

 

[sjm]

Honestly, I find it mysterious that shane has been underperforming in the MC.

Not me. Shane, a living legend for sure, is not always a fast starter on his own side of the Atlantic. He won the US Open in October, but he lost the first six racks against Jayson Shaw in the semifinal before running a five pack to get back in it, eventually winning the match. Had it been a Mosconi match, he loses.

Shane is also at his best in a longer race, winner break, rack your own, break from the box format. The Mosconi Cup takes all four of those away from him.

When he must rely on his after the break skills as often as the Mosconi Cup demands, he is a much less formidable competitor. Of the 2016 Team USA contingent, only Justin Bergman displayed outstanding after the break skills.

 

[pmac666]

Not me. Shane, a living legend for sure, is not always a fast starter on his own side of the Atlantic. He won the US Open in October, but he lost the first six racks against Jayson Shaw in the semifinal before running a five pack to get back in it, eventually winning the match. Had it been a Mosconi match, he loses.

Shane is also at his best in a longer race, winner break, rack your own, break from the box format. The Mosconi Cup takes all four of those away from him.

When he must rely on his after the break skills as often as the Mosconi Cup demands, he is a much less formidable competitor. Of the 2016 Team USA contingent, only Justin Bergman displayed outstanding after the break skills.

wow, you basically describe a one trick pony here! when its true (and i have no doubt that you know what you are talking about) can shane still be considered as one of the best or even the best tourneyplayer in the world when hes only good under "his" circumstances?
i always thought its mainly the pressure at MC..... on the other side it could be a explanaition why hes not winning majors overseas!
(reminds me of thomas muster, he reached no1 in tennis just refusing to lose on clay, but was he really the best player? surely not)

 

[Mole Eye]

We've been through this before, people saying Shane is only great because of his break. He is outstanding at all areas, He has won a US Open one pocket championship and Derby City one pocket championship, where the break is not a major factor. Safety play and pocketing balls; who is significantly better? Yes, his break is dominant, and where the rules favor the better breaker, he goes to the top of the heap, but he's won at alternate break also. Saying SVB wins solely because of his break is like saying Mosconi only won because of his pocketing skills. Sheesh!

 

[Swighey]

A good break is also an advantage when it's alternate break. That should be enough to retain the advantage in the long run against players who are also outstanding in all areas. Winner breaks is 100% fine for cash but in a fair contest there is no argument for winner breaks. Alternate break is more exciting as well.

 

[Swighey]

Not me. Shane, a living legend for sure, is not always a fast starter on his own side of the Atlantic. He won the US Open in October, but he lost the first six racks against Jayson Shaw in the semifinal before running a five pack to get back in it, eventually winning the match. Had it been a Mosconi match, he loses.

Shane is also at his best in a longer race, winner break, rack your own, break from the box format. The Mosconi Cup takes all four of those away from him.

When he must rely on his after the break skills as often as the Mosconi Cup demands, he is a much less formidable competitor. Of the 2016 Team USA contingent, only Justin Bergman displayed outstanding after the break skills.

Indeed. After the break skills are much easier to execute when the break is, more often than not, an exceptional break. After a less exceptional break, those after the break skills become much harder to execute and mistakes will creep in more often at any level.

 

[sjm]

wow, you basically describe a one trick pony here! when its true (and i have no doubt that you know what you are talking about) can shane still be considered as one of the best or even the best tourneyplayer in the world when hes only good under "his" circumstances?
i always thought its mainly the pressure at MC..... on the other side it could be a explanaition why hes not winning majors overseas!
(reminds me of thomas muster, he reached no1 in tennis just refusing to lose on clay, but was he really the best player? surely not)

Far from a one trick pony. The longer races suit Shane, who has been successful at Matchroom's "neutral-racker" race to 8 World Pool Masters.

I have merely pointed out that Shane, arguably the best-ever breaker of the balls in rotation games, thrives more under certain playing conditions and that the Mosconi offers him the least favorable set of circumstances given his skills and preferences.

Shane has been quite successful under varied rules and conditions, but has to work harder to win under certain rules and conditions. Sometimes, because of his great pedigree, he finds a way.

In the end, a player is as good as his playing resume, and Shane's is one of the best resumes ever with countless major titles. A living legend and all time great, but as he is so reliant on his break, and is able to string racks together (and thereby take opponents out of their rhythm) as well as any player of the modern era, things like alternate break, neutral racker, and short-race make his job harder.

 

[sjm]

A good break is also an advantage when it's alternate break. That should be enough to retain the advantage in the long run against players who are also outstanding in all areas. Winner breaks is 100% fine for cash but in a fair contest there is no argument for winner breaks. Alternate break is more exciting as well.

Well analyzed and I agree with much of what you said.

A good break is huge even in alternate break, but Shane is used to stringing multiple racks on a single trip to the table, and this formula has had much to do with his accumulation of titles over the years. This ability means he's never out of a match no matter how far behind he is.

I'm all for alternate break in short races, because I want to see both players shoot.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Well analyzed and I agree with much of what you said.

A good break is huge evening alternate break, but Shane is used to stringing multiple racks on a single trip to the table, and this formula has had much to do with his accumulation of titles over the years. This ability means he's never out of a match no matter how far behind he is.

I'm all for alternate break in short races, because I want to see both players shoot.

As long as players are paying an entry, alternate break should be mandatory in races under 11.

 

[bicki]

@sjm

To some extent I do agree with your assessment that shane mainly excels in longer, winner-break rotation games. I watched pretty much all his TAR races and other challenge matches and became a huge fan of his. Therefore, we had invited him to our place in Switzerland a couple of years back... Shane's 10-ball break is the benchmark, a class of its own. The same goes with 8-ball, since it is pretty much the same break-style. 9-ball has changed... Back in the time when we all broke from the side with the 1 on the spot, almost anybody had a good break in 9ball. shane was average among other top players as I find. Break box rule gave shane an advantage again but was quickly taken away again with racking the 9 on the spot. Now many just try to make the 1 in the side and relinquish control of the cue ball to a large extent (especially with the 3-ball-kitchen-rule). So shane is back to average among top players. As Mole Eye pointed out very correctly, shane has had great successes in one-pocket where the break is not a factor proofing his after break skills.

I like the term "after break skills". Shane has tons of these skills! He belongs to the best of the world. He has this Deuel-kind creativity and kicks incredibly well. I saw shane leading in long races by 15 games and still think about an opener for 3 minutes. Weighing all the options before going ahead. Meaning, he does not rush shots (in anger or lack of idea). And that is where I don't agree with sjm with regard to shane's alleged underperformance at the MC. Shane has all the tools he needs to also excel at this high pressure event.

I do support the idea that shane should not be the team leader for US. I met shane and I don't see him in that role. It would rather distract him from best performance. But I think he can be a great great team member for the US.

 

[jay helfert]

I will agree with Stu in assessing Shane as one of the all time greats! The sheer number of big (and small) tournaments he has won is amazing, considering how strong the fields have been. He has not discriminated, winning against international fields at the World Pool Masters, U.S. Open and Bigfoot Classic, beating the elite in North America over and over again at stops ranging from the Rum Runner in Las Vegas to the Swanee in Los Angeles and the Super Expo in Philly. Shane has shown tenacity and courage in all kinds of competition, with his lone blemish a dismal record in the MC.

I've been there to see many of his debacles at the MC. It tore at me to watch sometimes, a great player become very human. We can debate all day and night why this has happened, but I contend it's not due to short matches, alternate breaks or any of that. He has had many chances to win matches, with open tables staring at him; the kind he usually gobbles up and he fails to get out. This has happened more and more as the years go by; Shane stumbles during the rack, getting out of line and needing to play safe, an outright miss, or worse yet leaving his partner in a really bad spot.

For some un-explainable reason, he becomes a B player in the MC, falling short time and again to opponents he would normally beat. I've watched matches where his opponent is ready to fold, except Shane keeps letting them get back to the table. When they see he is not ready to win, they take advantage and pounce. His problem is not the short races, it lies somewhere between his ears. Normally he responds well to pressure, but in this setting the pressure overwhelms him. For me it's a strange anomaly in the career of a great player. Superman got weak when he got close to Kryptonite and when Shane sees that Mosconi Cup the blood slowly drains out of his body. I'm hopeful one day he finds the antidote.

 

[jasonlaus]

I will agree with Stu in assessing Shane as one of the all time greats! The sheer number of big (and small) tournaments he has won is amazing, considering how strong the fields have been. He has not discriminated, winning against international fields at the World Pool Masters, U.S. Open and Bigfoot Classic, beating the elite in North America over and over again at stops ranging from the Rum Runner in Las Vegas to the Swanee in Los Angeles and the Super Expo in Philly. Shane has shown tenacity and courage in all kinds of competition, with his lone blemish a dismal record in the MC.

I've been there to see many of his debacles at the MC. It tore at me to watch sometimes, a great player become very human. We can debate all day and night why this has happened, but I contend it's not due to short matches, alternate breaks or any of that. He has had many chances to win matches, with open tables staring at him; the kind he usually gobbles up and he fails to get out. This has happened more and more as the years go by; Shane stumbles during the rack, getting out of line and needing to play safe, an outright miss, or worse yet leaving his partner in a really bad spot.

For some un-explainable reason, he becomes a B player in the MC, falling short time and again to opponents he would normally beat. I've watched matches where his opponent is ready to fold, except Shane keeps letting them get back to the table. When they see he is not ready to win, they take advantage and pounce. His problem is not the short races, it lies somewhere between his ears. Normally he responds well to pressure, but in this setting the pressure overwhelms him. For me it's a strange anomaly in the career of a great player. Superman got weak when he got close to Kryptonite and when Shane sees that Mosconi Cup the blood slowly drains out of his body. I'm hopeful one day he finds the antidote.

Great post, very accurate.
Jason

 

[Tooler]

I will agree with Stu in assessing Shane as one of the all time greats! The sheer number of big (and small) tournaments he has won is amazing, considering how strong the fields have been. He has not discriminated, winning against international fields at the World Pool Masters, U.S. Open and Bigfoot Classic, beating the elite in North America over and over again at stops ranging from the Rum Runner in Las Vegas to the Swanee in Los Angeles and the Super Expo in Philly. Shane has shown tenacity and courage in all kinds of competition, with his lone blemish a dismal record in the MC.

I've been there to see many of his debacles at the MC. It tore at me to watch sometimes, a great player become very human. We can debate all day and night why this has happened, but I contend it's not due to short matches, alternate breaks or any of that. He has had many chances to win matches, with open tables staring at him; the kind he usually gobbles up and he fails to get out. This has happened more and more as the years go by; Shane stumbles during the rack, getting out of line and needing to play safe, an outright miss, or worse yet leaving his partner in a really bad spot.

For some un-explainable reason, he becomes a B player in the MC, falling short time and again to opponents he would normally beat. I've watched matches where his opponent is ready to fold, except Shane keeps letting them get back to the table. When they see he is not ready to win, they take advantage and pounce. His problem is not the short races, it lies somewhere between his ears. Normally he responds well to pressure, but in this setting the pressure overwhelms him. For me it's a strange anomaly in the career of a great player. Superman got weak when he got close to Kryptonite and when Shane sees that Mosconi Cup the blood slowly drains out of his body. I'm hopeful one day he finds the antidote.

I agree with most of what you say Jay, and I've gone to MC since 2011. But, I believe there's something more to this, than just a mental block of sorts. That arena can get really loud, as we all know. I have nothing to base this on, and I'm not making excuses for Shane, but I think the noise is his biggest problem. If you go back and watch some of his matches in 2013,2015, and watch his expression before, and during the matches, his demeanor changes within the first 2/3 racks. He's picking up a lot more noise than he's used to, and it's bothering him. I even asked his Grandfather about this in 2011, and he just smiled,shrugged, and said "maybe".

I kinda, sorta like the atmosphere at MC, but the Soccer mentality is getting a little out of hand. Go back 10-15 years, and watch a few matches. The crowd was a little more respectful of the players than they are now. Nowadays, they just want to pile-on.

 

[deano1772]

Euuuuurrrroooppppe!!!..

 

[prpavi]

I agree with most of what you say Jay, and I've gone to MC since 2011. But, I believe there's something more to this, than just a mental block of sorts. That arena can get really loud, as we all know. I have nothing to base this on, and I'm not making excuses for Shane, but I think the noise is his biggest problem. If you go back and watch some of his matches in 2013,2015, and watch his expression before, and during the matches, his demeanor changes within the first 2/3 racks. He's picking up a lot more noise than he's used to, and it's bothering him. I even asked his Grandfather about this in 2011, and he just smiled,shrugged, and said "maybe".

I kinda, sorta like the atmosphere at MC, but the Soccer mentality is getting a little out of hand. Go back 10-15 years, and watch a few matches. The crowd was a little more respectful of the players than they are now. Nowadays, they just want to pile-on.

I'm european and I agree that the atmosphere can get a bit much, at times embarassing. My solution is not to allow alcohol during matches and I've noticed it gets worse from first to last match.

About Shane, I've seen him state people complained about him turining off his hearing aid so now he plays with it on, now I can't quite remember how he played before that in the Mosconi or when that switch happened exactly, but can that be a reason? I know I'm grasping for straws but just a thought that crossed my mind.

 

[maldito]

Johann's the best bet to bring the american boys close or even pull n upset.
His technical knowledge is well suited for the mosconi.

2 cents.

Agree with this 100% Johann is the best bet for this team.