Cindy Lee of Dragon Promotions speaks with Mike Howerton about their 10ball event and the associated conflicts of interest it appears to have generated.
Listen now: www.americanbilliardradio.com
Listen now: www.americanbilliardradio.com
ABR SPECIAL REPORT: Dragon promotions 10ball event
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I turned it off 1/3 the way through. If that's all she had, she should have never agreed to do the show. The whole $520 entry fee is a joke. Dragon won't even tell anyone if the 10k added will be paid in full W/O a full field...which means it won't. The best thing that can happen here is CW and Dragon get out of the pool business stick with cage fighting. CW does not have anywhere near the pull he had when Johnny A, Rodney, and about a half a dozen more of the good old boys, when they were all flying high. Johnnyt
This is a letter that was sent to me by a person in the industry who doesn't want to be named, for fear of political or economic backlash.
I agreed to post it for them, because I too believe that this has gotten way out of hand, and some things do need to be said, as unpleasant as they might be to hear.
Cindy and Charlie,
Despite what Cindy said on the interview, you are not the victims here. If you get hate mail or threats, it's because you have done something that people hate. They hate your repeated attempts to make your events out to be something they are not. And then to wonder why you have been alienated by the WPA and BCA shows very plainly that you must honestly believe that you've actually done nothing wrong.
But you have.
Cindy basically admitted that you choose to market your events this way purposely and intentionally, because clearly the phrase "world championship" generates more interest and prestige, regardless of whether or not the statement is actually true. She also presented the issue as if there were no way around it. "Would you rather we do no event at all, or claim that it's something that its not" (not an actual quote) which I must admit, is a disturbing modus operandi if you want to know the truth.
I cant speak for Rob, Shane or Ian, but I think I know why they didn't respond as quickly as you would have liked. It's probably because they are sick of dealing with the bullshit. And I don't blame them one bit. This is getting ridiculous beyond belief. You know damn good and well what your press releases were intended to do. You know damn good and well that you were pissed about the name change, so you tried your best to keep people believing that your event was still the same anyway. That's not effective marketing Cindy, that's lying to the players and fans.
For Pete's sake, just do what Mike said and knock off the bullshit and all of this will go away, the event will be fine, and the players will not have wasted huge sums of money and time, all because of you. With all the bad PR coming out of this, do you really want to pour gas on the fire and have 48 people blowing all kinds of money on nothing, because you're too stubborn to do the right thing?
Seriously..don't sit there and say "gee wiz, they could have called me back if they had a problem with what we are doing...". Why should they call you, when you should have known better in the first place?? You are not the victims here.
I agreed to post it for them, because I too believe that this has gotten way out of hand, and some things do need to be said, as unpleasant as they might be to hear.
Cindy and Charlie,
Despite what Cindy said on the interview, you are not the victims here. If you get hate mail or threats, it's because you have done something that people hate. They hate your repeated attempts to make your events out to be something they are not. And then to wonder why you have been alienated by the WPA and BCA shows very plainly that you must honestly believe that you've actually done nothing wrong.
But you have.
Cindy basically admitted that you choose to market your events this way purposely and intentionally, because clearly the phrase "world championship" generates more interest and prestige, regardless of whether or not the statement is actually true. She also presented the issue as if there were no way around it. "Would you rather we do no event at all, or claim that it's something that its not" (not an actual quote) which I must admit, is a disturbing modus operandi if you want to know the truth.
I cant speak for Rob, Shane or Ian, but I think I know why they didn't respond as quickly as you would have liked. It's probably because they are sick of dealing with the bullshit. And I don't blame them one bit. This is getting ridiculous beyond belief. You know damn good and well what your press releases were intended to do. You know damn good and well that you were pissed about the name change, so you tried your best to keep people believing that your event was still the same anyway. That's not effective marketing Cindy, that's lying to the players and fans.
For Pete's sake, just do what Mike said and knock off the bullshit and all of this will go away, the event will be fine, and the players will not have wasted huge sums of money and time, all because of you. With all the bad PR coming out of this, do you really want to pour gas on the fire and have 48 people blowing all kinds of money on nothing, because you're too stubborn to do the right thing?
Seriously..don't sit there and say "gee wiz, they could have called me back if they had a problem with what we are doing...". Why should they call you, when you should have known better in the first place?? You are not the victims here.
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Nauseating, actually.
It's remarkable that someone who seems as incompetent as Cindy sounded could be in charge of a pro event. I mean, why did she agree to the interview? She only succeeded in digging a deeper hole for Dragon Promo and this non-world, world tournament.
Mike was being a gentleman lobbing her the softballs.
ok, i have recouperated from the 20 trips to my cell phone that i thought was ringing during the interview. (RUDE!!!!
)back on topic: several times, i said to KK9: IS SHE SERIOUSLY THAT STUPID? WHAT BULLSHIT! DOES SHE REALLY THINK THAT PEOPLE WILL BUY THIS?
Mike exercised great restraint. i wouldn't have been as nice. (maybe it's a female-thing.) sometimes you just have to throw the BS flag.
Regardless of how this tournament or any other is marketed, there will always be a bottom line that most players will look at. Can I make money here and is this a good deal for me? The smart players who care about their bottom line will make a choice whether to play or not based on the above.
As an example Dragon put on a Men's Straight Pool event last year, inviting up to 64 players to compete. It was in New York and the entry fee was $500 and it was a four day event. With a full field the total purse came to $40,000. That means there was $8,000 in added money. My friend Dennis Orcollo was invited to play, and he would have had to fly from Los Angeles, spend at least five nights in an expensive hotel and pay a big entry fee to participate. I added up the numbers for him and told him he would have to finish third to break even!
Only the winner did okay here, with $10,000 the top prize and $5,000 for second. Third was like $3,000 I believe. It may have been only $2,500. Amazing to me, they got a full field of 64 suckers. Oops I mean players. Almost all were East Coast based, so they didn't have to fly in. I did take the time to call Charlie and ask him to waive Dennis' entry fee and maybe then he would come. No deal, so Dennis chose not to attend.
Again what amazes me is that they actually got 64 players for this aforementioned event. I guess it's a case of "If we can get them to come for almost no money, why not?"
Granted Dragon has produced some good events in the past, but events like these are not among them. And to bally-hoo them as if they are major pool tournaments is ridiculous. Most of the "major's" today have a purse well in excess of $100,000, with 25-40K on top. Even Manny Pacquiao's upcoming tournament has a purse of $150,000, with small entry fees and inexpensive accommodations, and yet he is only advertising it as what it actually is, a vanity event put on by him due to his love of the sport. There is no way Manny will make any money from this tournament. And many top players will be in attendance, with 40K on top in the Doubles portion of this tournament. Bottom line here, "Money talks and bullshit walks."
As an example Dragon put on a Men's Straight Pool event last year, inviting up to 64 players to compete. It was in New York and the entry fee was $500 and it was a four day event. With a full field the total purse came to $40,000. That means there was $8,000 in added money. My friend Dennis Orcollo was invited to play, and he would have had to fly from Los Angeles, spend at least five nights in an expensive hotel and pay a big entry fee to participate. I added up the numbers for him and told him he would have to finish third to break even!
Only the winner did okay here, with $10,000 the top prize and $5,000 for second. Third was like $3,000 I believe. It may have been only $2,500. Amazing to me, they got a full field of 64 suckers. Oops I mean players. Almost all were East Coast based, so they didn't have to fly in. I did take the time to call Charlie and ask him to waive Dennis' entry fee and maybe then he would come. No deal, so Dennis chose not to attend.
Again what amazes me is that they actually got 64 players for this aforementioned event. I guess it's a case of "If we can get them to come for almost no money, why not?"
Granted Dragon has produced some good events in the past, but events like these are not among them. And to bally-hoo them as if they are major pool tournaments is ridiculous. Most of the "major's" today have a purse well in excess of $100,000, with 25-40K on top. Even Manny Pacquiao's upcoming tournament has a purse of $150,000, with small entry fees and inexpensive accommodations, and yet he is only advertising it as what it actually is, a vanity event put on by him due to his love of the sport. There is no way Manny will make any money from this tournament. And many top players will be in attendance, with 40K on top in the Doubles portion of this tournament. Bottom line here, "Money talks and bullshit walks."
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Cindy Lee is CW's "grapevine" on the forum.
Dragon is all about making money. I get that. Nobody should promote a pool tournament and lose money, like Barry Behrman does each year. If Charlie was more amiable to others, he might have more supporters. Instead, he chooses to step on anybody that gets in his way, even if it means being unfair and not playing by the rules.
The way the UPA was handled, Charlie's friends were hand-picked to represent America in lucrative tournaments, when the UPA ranking points were supposed to be used in the seleciton criteria. It didn't seem to matter to anybody, even when it was broadcast loudly on this forum when it was happening.
Corey, Frankie Hernandez, and Keith were ostracized by the UPA because they would not sign a legal contract to join. Earl was told by Charlie that he could not compete in UPA events, all because Earl asked for his check at a tournament after he was eliminated. Charlie banned him.
CW has not made any friends over the past 15 years in the pool world. It is a shame, too. Like Max Eberle, Charlie Williams has a nice story about how he was supported by the BEF/BCA when he was growing up as a young boy.
I just don't like how he conducts business. I don't like the WPA, either, for a variety of reasons. But, in this regard, I support the WPA, 100 percent, and understand why they are taking a stand to defend professional pool and preserve the integrity of pool as a sport.
I read recently where Dragon was promoting an MMA fight. Maybe they should just get out of the pool business altogether.
Dragon is all about making money. I get that. Nobody should promote a pool tournament and lose money, like Barry Behrman does each year. If Charlie was more amiable to others, he might have more supporters. Instead, he chooses to step on anybody that gets in his way, even if it means being unfair and not playing by the rules.
The way the UPA was handled, Charlie's friends were hand-picked to represent America in lucrative tournaments, when the UPA ranking points were supposed to be used in the seleciton criteria. It didn't seem to matter to anybody, even when it was broadcast loudly on this forum when it was happening.
Corey, Frankie Hernandez, and Keith were ostracized by the UPA because they would not sign a legal contract to join. Earl was told by Charlie that he could not compete in UPA events, all because Earl asked for his check at a tournament after he was eliminated. Charlie banned him.
CW has not made any friends over the past 15 years in the pool world. It is a shame, too. Like Max Eberle, Charlie Williams has a nice story about how he was supported by the BEF/BCA when he was growing up as a young boy.
I just don't like how he conducts business. I don't like the WPA, either, for a variety of reasons. But, in this regard, I support the WPA, 100 percent, and understand why they are taking a stand to defend professional pool and preserve the integrity of pool as a sport.
I read recently where Dragon was promoting an MMA fight. Maybe they should just get out of the pool business altogether.
I've not heard the mouth piece speak but, from the responses sounds like a duck.
Who here in this thread that continually post, more or less all negative in regards to DP, actually have organized a successful pro event? Where all the players were paid on time, the event was professionally ran?
Sub-Events on someone else's momentum don't count here either. A SOLE EVENT, organized, promoted, and marketed with success.
1..2..3.... GO!
Sub-Events on someone else's momentum don't count here either. A SOLE EVENT, organized, promoted, and marketed with success.
1..2..3.... GO!
This is a bit of a strawman argument. The debate is whether it's misleading and false representation for Dragon Promotions/Cindy Lee/Charlie Williams to market their event as a "world championship", more or less. To have you say "only those that have organized a pro event" is immaterial. You don't need tourney organizer experience to debate if something is being sold under false pretenses.
Anywho, to answer your accusation on successful pro event promotion experience, go talk to Jay Helfert, who has posted in this thread.
Eric