"Aiming Systems" are Junk, DO the Work!

BC21

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And all of the above happens when a high level of play is attained to begin with and the time on the table is almost every day for months and months on end.

Joe Schmo part time player ain't gonna get there.

Joe Schmo has the opportunity. If he struggles with pocketing balls regularly then yes he has a tough and long road to travel. You can't get a feel for playing if the balls aren't hitting the pockets. But if Joe can understand and utilize a good aiming system (any system that he can quickly understand and utilize) he will begin to develop consistency, and then the road will be a lot shorter and easier.

This of course requires a little work and dedication from Joe. But he could do it in a fraction of the work and time it would take if he relied on trial and error instead of a solid aiming system. I have players that contact me from all over the world, as I'm sure Stan Shuffett does also, that can't believe how much better they've gotten after working with my material for only a couple of weeks. They are proving it everyday.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
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But if Joe can understand and utilize a good aiming system (any system that he can quickly understand and utilize) he will begin to develop consistency, and then the road will be a lot shorter and easier.

Glad to finally see the guy who developed a better mousetrap fractional aiming system finally touting all aiming systems and giving them the praise that's deserved. Be proud!

This of course requires a little work and dedication from Joe. But he could do it in a fraction of the work and time it would take if he relied on trial and error instead of a solid aiming system.

Twice in one day, in one post? I'm floored. :grin:

Absolutely! Sure, a player can HAMB and try to reinvent the wheel without any help or know what is already out there while listening to Frank Sinatra singing "I Did It My Way" a million times.

Or he/she can HAMB using an aiming system or multiple aiming systems to dial it in. Who will get there faster and be more consistent in the long run?


I have players that contact me from all over the world, as I'm sure Stan Shuffett does also, that can't believe how much better they've gotten after working with my material for only a couple of weeks. They are proving it everyday.

They can ALL work if players are willing to do the work. It does cut down on the learning curve and inconsistencies. Even the pros can go into a slump.
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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I wish I had not labeled this thread as "Aiming Systems are Junk". I was hoping to converse with some of you about the aiming systems from over 1/2 table away. IF you don't agree that coming into the pocket at a thick angle or a thin angle determines your shape on the next ball, then I fold, we are not in agreement. If your "aiming system" allows you to do that at the very end of a 9' table? I know one person that can make that happen and his shape is on a dime, BUT he depends on hitting the pocket at the right angle. Not saying I can do that, but I damn sure want to learn watching him play.
PS: I don't see any threads on getting shape on AZB.... guess it's not included.
Do anyone of you know the "diving ball shot"? I know the top 100 pool players know it.
 
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stan shuffett

AzB Silver Member
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I wish I had not labeled this thread as "Aiming Systems are Junk". I was hoping to converse with some of you about the aiming systems from over 1/2 table away. IF you don't agree that coming into the pocket at a thick angle or a thin angle determines your shape on the next ball, then I fold, we are not in agreement. If your "aiming system" allows you to do that at the very end of a 9' table? I know one person that can make that happen and his shape is on a dime, BUT he depends on hitting the pocket at the right angle. Not saying I can do that, but I damn sure want to learn watching him play.
PS: I don't see any threads on getting shape on AZB.... guess it's not included.
Do anyone of you know the "divoing ball shot"? I know the top 100 pool players know it.

Pool is a derivative of billiards and a strong case can be made that pool is incorrectly taught backwards. In other words, we teach ball pocketing ffirst and then position play next.

CTE couples with that idea quite nicely in that four major perceptions are learned that handle nearly all shots. Once the perceptions are learned then the game unfolds in its natural order.

I can tell you that from my experience, the heck with the pockets!! I play whatever position that I need off of the object ball based on known perceptions. If I need to adjust a perception in order to obtain favorable cue ball positioning, that's what I do.
It's plum ludicrous to think that a CTE player is limited on how they can send a cue ball into a pocket. It's a whole heck of a lot easier to just play position off of an object ball perception verses I have to cheat the pocket in some way for achieving desirable position. That's silly!

Stan Shuffett
 
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Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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I can tell you that from my experience, the heck with the pockets!! I play whatever position that I need off of the object ball based on known perceptions. If I need to adjust a perception in order to obtain favorable cue ball positioning, that's what I do.
It's plum ludicrous to think that a CTE player is limited on how they can send a cue ball into a pocket. It's a whole heck of a lot easier to just play position off of an object ball perception verses I have to cheat the pocket in some way for achieving desirable position. That's silly!

Stan Shuffett

I know my professional would disagree with you. As you know, an OB two or three feet from the corner pocket, and you are going to drive the CB three rails around the table, HOW you drive the OB into that corner pocket might make 1-2 diamonds of difference in the way the CB goes around the table and ends up. I've seen it. IF the OB is hit thick, middle, or thin into the pocket, makes all the difference in the way the CB goes around the table missing interfering balls, etc. How does an "aiming system" account for that disparity? THIS is why my teaching professional dismisses ALL "aiming systems", because he can't do that at about 5-7 diamonds away.
I invite anyone up in the NW to come on down and see this before you spend the time on learning some "aiming system".
 

stan shuffett

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I know my professional would disagree with you. As you know, an OB two or three feet from the corner pocket, and you are going to drive the CB three rails around the table, HOW you drive the OB into that corner pocket might make 1-2 diamonds of difference in the way the CB goes around the table and ends up. I've seen it. IF the OB is hit thick, middle, or thin into the pocket, makes all the difference in the way the CB goes around the table missing interfering balls, etc. How does an "aiming system" account for that disparity? THIS is why my teaching professional dismisses ALL "aiming systems", because he can't do that at about 5-7 diamonds away.
I invite anyone up in the NW to come on down and see this before you spend the time on learning some "aiming system".

Dismisses all aiming systems......Brilliant! Your friend dismisses CTE without knowing it. I guarantee you that he is extremely lacking in knowledge about CTE....the same as you.
I work off of 4 perceptions day in and day out.....tens upon tens of thousands of shots. You just go ahead believing that I can't play position......Here's what you can take to the bank. Professionals play shape off of the OB and not by cheat the pocket lines.
You done gone down the wrong road!!
Lol

Stan Shuffett
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Dismisses all aiming systems......Brilliant! Your friend dismisses CTE without knowing it. I guarantee you that he is extremely lacking in knowledge about CTE....the same as you.
I work off of 4 perceptions day in and day out.....tens upon tens of thousands of shots. You just go ahead believing that I can't play position......Here's what you can take to the bank. Professionals play shape off of the OB and not by cheat the pocket lines.
You done gone down the wrong road!!
Lol

Stan Shuffett

He is a teaching professional teacher and he has your DVD, SAMBA, Pro99's, whatever, but he knows his own aiming system and he can show the "aiming systems" are lacking at every ball angle at least 1/2 table away from the pocket. He can prove it daily and I've seen it.
 

stan shuffett

AzB Silver Member
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He is a teaching professional teacher and he has your DVD, SAMBA, Pro99's, whatever, but he knows his own aiming system and he can show the "aiming systems" are lacking at every ball angle at least 1/2 table away from the pocket. He can prove it daily and I've seen it.




Why not just have your pro expose all aiming systems as junk right now....just put it on the internet.

You are coming to St Louis one day? .Get the info and the proof and bring it with you and a bet of some sort. You can be the man that shot CTE down....I will meet you in St Louis once my book is out....

Stan Shuffett
 

Bobkitty

I said: "Here kitty, kitty". Got this frown.
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Why not just have your pro expose all aiming systems as junk right now....just put it on the internet.

You are coming to St Louis one day? .Get the info and the proof and bring it with you and a bet of some sort. You can be the man that shot CTE down....I will meet you in St Louis once my book is out....

Stan Shuffett

Actually, I will not argue with you. I know my aiming system and I know his. And, I think you know yours.... IF you are 6" away from the center of the side pocket, do you want to ONLY drive it into the middle of the side pocket or pick a side to enhance your shape? I know you do!! I think we all do if a cluster bust is awaiting, or a 3-4 rail CB shot. etc. I've picked an teacher that can do this from all over the table. Please let us know you only drive every ball toward the middle of the pocket.
 
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stan shuffett

AzB Silver Member
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He could do it for you instantly. Are you coming to Portland, Or. someday? Actually, I will not argue with you. I know my aiming system and I know his. And, I think you know yours.... IF you are one 6" away from the center of the side pocket, do you want to ONLY drive it into the middle of the side pocket or pick a side to enhance your shape? I know you do!! I think we all do if a cluster bust is awaiting, or a 3-4 rail CB shot. etc. Please let us know you only drive every ball toward the middle of the pocket.

If I didn't know better I'd say you're Dan White undercover. Take denwhit and change the e to a and then move the e to after the t. Is that you, Dan? Gotta be you! Lol

I guess you think I placed 25th at our US Open by only knowing center pocket. I guess you think that I have run 100s in straight without knowing position play.
Put CTE on the internet NOW and if it matches my free online videos you win $5G. What do you have to lose? Put it on there! Now, within the hour. It's 10:58! EST.

Stan Shuffett
 

BC21

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He is a teaching professional teacher and he has your DVD, SAMBA, Pro99's, whatever, but he knows his own aiming system and he can show the "aiming systems" are lacking at every ball angle at least 1/2 table away from the pocket. He can prove it daily and I've seen it.

My particular aiming system is geared toward helping players become natural shot makers by providing a fairly simple method of knowing proper aim lines for the corresponding angles. Pocketing a ball from 8 or 9 feet is very doable. Pocketing a ball thick or thin, as you say, from 8 or 9 feet is a perk of experience. Aiming systems help players become more consistent shot makers, and experience builds the skill of fine tuning the shots.

Playing position is more feel than anything else. Just the right amount of speed or spin, or both, is something all players develop over time if they play long enough, learning to manipulate the shot angle and use the full pocket, etc.... There is no way to learn that first, before learning to pocket balls. Usually it gets learned WHILE you're learning to pocket balls, which is why becoming a great player requires a lot of table time.

But if you have a solid method of pocketing balls, a method that you worked with to the extent of being able to tweak shots on command to target one side or the other of the pocket, you can send the CB anywhere you want as long as you have a good feel for speed and/or spin. This applies to all aiming systems, maybe except for the ones that require the CB to be hit off-center in order to aim....that would make position play a little tricky to incorporate. As Stan said, it's a bit ridiculous to think you can't play position when using an aiming system. It's also a bit rediculous to think any competing pro player would think about cheating the pocket when the ob is 8ft away. A ball that is 2 or 3 ft from the pocket can easily be sent left or right or middle pocket. It takes experience to be able to fine tune such aiming
 
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SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
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I come up with 11 of the 30 that say they don't really aim, but just see or feel where to shoot the ball.

I think maybe both of us should do a recount. LMAO I ended up with 29 total and 7 saying they don't know what they do, shoot by feel, or can't explain it. I had 22 who use an aiming system.

They look and then shoot. 19 describe using gb or fractions or edges or contact points. A few of these 19 go on to say that they don't use any system process much anymore because they've hit so many balls they are basically pocketing balls automatically without thinking or visualizing anything.

Some of the 22, like Steve Mizerak originally stated that he uses nothing and just shoots by feel. Later on he said he uses contact points. I put him in the "aiming" category.

C.J. Wiley said there are some things you just don't want to discuss and talk about to give away secrets. That could be considered no aiming system since he never said what he did. However, in C.J.'s DVD he goes into detail about his specific aiming system that he uses and teaches.

I have his DVD series so I'm totally familiar with it. I put him definitely in the aiming system user.

Either way, there were a good many more who use aiming systems either all the time or when the heat is on when they have to make a ball than those who claim to only use feel.
 

BC21

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Some of the 22, like Steve Mizerak originally stated that he uses nothing and just shoots by feel. Later on he said he uses contact points. I put him in the "aiming" category.

C.J. Wiley said there are some things you just don't want to discuss and talk about to give away secrets. That could be considered no aiming system since he never said what he did. However, in C.J.'s DVD he goes into detail about his specific aiming system that he uses and teaches.

I have his DVD series so I'm totally familiar with it. I put him definitely in the aiming system user.

Either way, there were a good many more who use aiming systems either all the time or when the heat is on when they have to make a ball than those who claim to only use feel.

There were 30 players mentioned. If you read it and not skim it you'll see. For instinct or feel I included every player that didn't specifically mention using any known system. Like Tommy Kennedy, who said, "I look at the object ball straight ahead, and then look little by little to the right or left of the ball. I keep going until I see the spot where it's going to hit the bigger part of the pocket." This means he keeps adjusting until it feels right. Miz specifically said it's instinct. He visualizes where the CB should contact the OB in order to make the shot, then uses feel or instinct to put the CB in the right place to accomplish that -- no systematic approach to doing it.

There were 4 or so that used natural methods like this, where they just base their aim on what they see, the relationship between the balls and the pocket, which can be called instinct or feel. Another 6 or 7 called it instict. The remaining 19 say they use a particular system or at least learned from a particular system.

Honestly, IMO, visualizing a ghostball or contact point is a natural aiming method, not a true system in the sense of following certain steps to determine where to aim. You simply look at the OB and visualize where the cue ball should be in order to make it...no pivoting or parallel shifting or alignment perceptions or fractional/angle calculations. Nevertheless, I included those who say they visualize a GB or contact point in with system users because somehow (over the years) these methods have become labeled as "systems". Still, if I concede Miz, there are 10 others that say they either don't know how they aim, can't explain it, or just look and shoot based on what they see.

But you're right, the majority use a "system" of some sort, even though the oldest "systems" are simply nothing more than looking at where the CB needs to be and putting it there, which equates to trial and error until you develop a feel or instinct for it.
 
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BilliardsAbout

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There were 30 players mentioned. If you read it and not skim it you'll see. For instinct or feel I included every player that didn't specifically mention using any known system. Like Tommy Kennedy, who said, "I look at the object ball straight ahead, and then look little by little to the right or left of the ball. I keep going until I see the spot where it's going to hit the bigger part of the pocket." This means he keeps adjusting until it feels right. Miz specifically said it's instinct. He visualizes where the CB should contact the OB in order to make the shot, then uses feel or instinct to put the CB in the right place to accomplish that -- no systematic approach to doing it.

There were 4 or so that used natural methods like this, where they just base their aim on what they see, the relationship between the balls and the pocket, which can be called instinct or feel. Another 6 or 7 called it instict. The remaining 19 say they use a particular system or at least learned from a particular system.

Honestly, IMO, visualizing a ghostball or contact point is a natural aiming method, not a true system in the sense of following certain steps to determine where to aim. You simply look at the OB and visualize where the cue ball should be in order to make it...no pivoting or parallel shifting or alignment perceptions or fractional/angle calculations. Nevertheless, I included those who say they visualize a GB or contact point in with system users because somehow (over the years) these methods have become labeled as "systems". Still, if I concede Miz, there are 10 others that say they either don't know how they aim, can't explain it, or just look and shoot based on what they see.

But you're right, the majority use a "system" of some sort, even though the oldest "systems" are simply nothing more than looking at where the CB needs to be and putting it there, which equates to trial and error until you develop a feel or instinct for it.

I've talked to TK about stuff like this when he was a guest at my home. Even TK uses a "system" for applying english and etc. I could tell you what it is, but I'd have to kill you . . . :)

The purpose of an aim system IMHO is not for a pro (that's a rare change late in pool life as has been documented here) but to take someone who has trouble hitting the side of a barn and is overcutting everything they look at, and who is compensating for overcutting and throw consciously or subconsciously by banging the balls hard . . . and etc.

Also, aim systems are for wise amateur players, who see their value. Every aim system basher I've known has missed going up a level because they lack discipline and the will to experiment inside their own game. Even those pros who are 100% instinct and subconscious aim know that a system is how you (may, unless they have strong visualization gifts) train an amateur.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
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There were 30 players mentioned. If you read it and not skim it you'll see.

I didn't skim it and read all of it. Yes, there were 30 players named, one of which was Michelle Adams. She had noting to say at all about aiming. Her comment was about which ball she looked at last, OB or CB. So I eliminated her from the count either way.

For instinct or feel I included every player that didn't specifically mention using any known system. Like Tommy Kennedy, who said, "I look at the object ball straight ahead, and then look little by little to the right or left of the ball. I keep going until I see the spot where it's going to hit the bigger part of the pocket."

There's a good example of a matter of interpretation. I included him as a user because he was specifically looking for a SPOT (CONTACT SPOT) where it's going the hit the bigger part of the pocket. He wasted time by scanning back and forth while down on the ball. All he had to do was stand behind the OB and look directly at a line to the middle of the pocket to identify the spot.

This means he keeps adjusting until it feels right. Miz specifically said it's instinct. He visualizes where the CB should contact the OB in order to make the shot, then uses feel or instinct to put the CB in the right place to accomplish that -- no systematic approach to doing it.

That is correct in one part of the section. But later on he mentioned the CONTACT POINT.
If you read it and not skim it you'll see. :grin:

Steve Mizerak waffled all over the place. HERE'S WHAT HE SAID ELSEWHERE:


Similarly, Steve Mizerak says, "The way I find the target or contact point on the object ball is to visualize an imaginary line from the back of the pocket through the object ball. During my warm-up strokes, my eyes move back and forth between the cue ball and the target point. I use one or two low strokes, as if I'm going to draw the ball, on all shots because that gives me confidence in hitting the cue ball correctly — because the bottom of the cue ball is the strongest
foundation to build on. I have no special tricks for cutting the ball or shooting aball down a rail."


There were 4 or so that used natural methods like this, where they just base their aim on what they see, the relationship between the balls and the pocket, which can be called instinct or feel. Another 6 or 7 called it instict. The remaining 19 say they use a particular system or at least learned from a particular system.

Honestly, IMO, visualizing a ghostball or contact point is a natural aiming method, not a true system in the sense of following certain steps to determine where to aim.

Contact point aiming is and always has been a true system whether you wish to believe it or not. I honestly think all of us learned how to play that way. Stand behind the OB in line with the center of the pocket, put the tip of your cue right at the spot, then run as fast as you can back to the CB without ever taking your eyes of the spot and then get down and try to hit it. Just DON'T hit it with the center of the CB or it won't go in. It has to be an equal and opposite site on the CB. A lesson I had to learn in the beginning from missing so many balls trying to hit it with center CB.

You simply look at the OB and visualize where the cue ball should be in order to make it...no pivoting or parallel shifting or alignment perceptions or fractional/angle calculations. Nevertheless, I included those who say they visualize a GB or contact point in with system users because somehow (over the years) these methods have become labeled as "systems". Still, if I concede Miz, there are 10 others that say they either don't know how they aim, can't explain it, or just look and shoot based on what they see.

But you're right, the majority use a "system" of some sort, even though the oldest "systems" are simply nothing more than looking at where the CB needs to be and putting it there, which equates to trial and error until you develop a feel or instinct for it.

Here are 6 that I came up with who gave no indication of using a system. I can't find the 7th and will have to go back.

Tony Ellin; Kelly Oyama; Loree Jon Jones; Mike Massey; Howard Vickery; Earl Strickland
 
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BC21

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Here are 6 that I came up with who gave no indication of using a system. I can't find the 7th and will have to go back.

Tony Ellin; Kelly Oyama; Loree Jon Jones; Mike Massey; Howard Vickery; Earl Strickland

Here's the 7th.....#14 ranked Michelle Adams opts for
moving her body rather than her eyes.
She explains, "I stand behind where the
cue ball and object ball are in a straight
line, and then I move to where I know I
have to hit it. Somebody explained this to
me once, and I thought it wasn't very
smart, but it works!"

I did acknowledge the Miz mentioning a contact point. His exact words were "I find the target or contact point". And he actually says this first, then later describes the process of sending the CB to this target as instinct. He uses no system to find the "target or contact point" (other than his body's optical system) and no system to ensure he sends the CB to the target. ;)

There a good 4 or 5 more you can add to your list of 6 if you read more thoroughly and ignore any bias.:D
 

BC21

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I've talked to TK about stuff like this when he was a guest at my home. Even TK uses a "system" for applying english and etc. I could tell you what it is, but I'd have to kill you . . . :)

The purpose of an aim system IMHO is not for a pro (that's a rare change late in pool life as has been documented here) but to take someone who has trouble hitting the side of a barn and is overcutting everything they look at, and who is compensating for overcutting and throw consciously or subconsciously by banging the balls hard . . . and etc.

Also, aim systems are for wise amateur players, who see their value. Every aim system basher I've known has missed going up a level because they lack discipline and the will to experiment inside their own game. Even those pros who are 100% instinct and subconscious aim know that a system is how you (may, unless they have strong visualization gifts) train an amateur.

Great post.:thumbup:
 

BC21

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.......snip......
I didn't skim it and read all of it. Yes, there were 30 players named, one of which was Michelle Adams. She had noting to say at all about aiming. Her comment was about which ball she looked at last, OB or CB. So I eliminated her from the count either way.
.......snip......

For instinct or feel I includ
Here are 6 that I came up with who gave no indication of using a system. I can't find the 7th and will have to go back.

Tony Ellin; Kelly Oyama; Loree Jon Jones; Mike Massey; Howard Vickery; Earl Strickland

Michelle Adams most certainly had something to say about aiming. There are 3 or 4 others also.
 

SpiderWebComm

HelpImBeingOppressed
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There a good 4 or 5 more you can add to your list of 6 if you read more thoroughly and ignore any bias.:D

The same could be said for 4 or 5 less to deduct from you list of 11 and your own bias.

It isn't bias, it's interpretation and reading between the lines as far as what some of the wafflers are saying.

Maybe the next step is we take each name individually and beat it to death like cleaning a carpet or rug with an old carpet beater. :thumbup:

I'll start: 1. Shari Stauch - Ghost Ball 2. Vicki Paski - Ghost Ball 3. Dawn Hopkins - Ghost Ball 4. Roger Griffis - Ghost Ball 5. Bonnie Arnold - Contact Point & Ghost Ball
 

BC21

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The same could be said for 4 or 5 less to deduct from you list of 11 and your own bias.

It isn't bias, it's interpretation and reading between the lines as far as what some of the wafflers are saying.

Maybe the next step is we take each name individually and beat it to death like cleaning a carpet or rug with an old carpet beater. :thumbup:

I'll start: 1. Shari Stauch - Ghost Ball 2. Vicki Paski - Ghost Ball 3. Dawn Hopkins - Ghost Ball 4. Roger Griffis - Ghost Ball 5. Bonnie Arnold - Contact Point & Ghost Ball

LoL

From the article: Bonnie Arnold sticks with visualizing where the ball has to hit the pocket. "When I'm aiming, I look at the pocket and I visualize where the ball has to go in the pocket. Then I look at the spot on the object ball, and visualize the cue ball to the object ball to the pocket."

What aiming system is this? She doesn't mention a ghost ball or a contact point. The "spot" could be her aim spot, where she THINKS the aim should be based on her instincts. Any player in the article that didn't mention a known system can't be lumped into whatever system you think or assume they were using. I did no assumptions. When someone says they look at the ball, visualize what it takes to send it to the pocket, well.....that player goes into the instinct category.

But you're right, we could argue this forever. I'm trying to be reasonable and you are trying to prove something. It doesn't change the fact that aiming systems have been very useful and beneficial to all players of all skill levels.
 
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