Allen Hopkins Pro turn-out??

[Socopool79]

I don't know how many pros you know, but most of the ones I know would have trouble coughing up $2,000 for an entry fee. Because of that, there would be no $300,000 purse. Most pros who would pay a high entry fee, with the exception of one or two, would be getting staked or asking for a backers committee on a forum like AzBilliards, which in John Schmidt's case was a very happy ending when he won the U.S. Open being backed by a few members of this forum. That was actually pretty cool.

About 5 or 6 years ago, subject to check, a group came out with a $1-million pool tournament. They advertised it late, and everybody was paranoid to send in their entry fees to this unknown entity. The whole operation folded like a lawn chair before it could gain any steam.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

I know it's asking a lot and these are just ideas as crazy as they are. As far as being skeptical about putting up money of course to an unknown entity. That's what the BCA or ABP and lawyers are for no? To represent the players interests and make sure things are run legit.

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[Socopool79]

Single elimination would never work. Also, the there would likely be 2-4 guys who win consistently. Eventually the money would dry up. Unfortunately for something like this to work, luck has to play a larger part. There has to be a "realistic" chance for Joe Schmoe moneybags to win for people to feed the prize fund with dead money such as in poker.

10k sounds like a lot, but in poker, its fairly easy to make 10k by playing. Even bad players can grind out and save if they have a full time job, and get on a hot streak for a few months. And good players have absolutely no issue getting money together from poker.

The other part is replenishment. Its fairly easy if you are successful at poker to recoup the 10k you put into a yearly tournament if you don't want. The action in poker is non stop. Pool players go their entire career sometimes without playing for much more than 100$ sets.

My comparison earlier was somewhat sarcastic. While 10k entry fees would solve the tournaments not being worth playing part......there are far too many other issues that would make it pretty much impossible for all but the top 20ish players to actually pursue.

So like poker how do we mix the pros with say players who really don't think they could win but if they got lucky they might have a shot to at least cash and have a good story to tell. It seems to me like the game needs to be "luckier" for this to happen which is almost counter intuitive to what everyone wants (tighter pockets, 10 foot pool tables, etc, etc). How do we make the game luckier to where skill will come ahead in the long run but luck will play a part in the out come so that the same 2-4 guys don't always win.

 

[scttybee]

Im not sure who i agree with yet but...aside from the lower level pros that have no sponsor are you saying that lucasi,puyat,fury,scorpion and other sponsors that i cant think of right now wont pay to put their players in?that is the biggest problem of all(if thats the case)
what is the entry to a standard pga tour event?
i know they have much more financial backing but the point is 64 times2000 is 128,000

30,000 winner

20,000 second

15,000 third

10,000 fourth

7,500 fifth/sixth

5,000 seven/eight

3,000 nine/twelve

2,000 thirteen/sixteen

thats 120,000 -obviously it could be adjusted i did this quickly in my little head so if it doesnt add sorry.

nobody should be going to lose,so the lower payout at the ed shouldnt matter

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

So like poker how do we mix the pros with say players who really don't think they could win but if they got lucky they might have a shot to at least cash and have a good story to tell. It seems to me like the game needs to be "luckier" for this to happen which is almost counter intuitive to what everyone wants (tighter pockets, 10 foot pool tables, etc, etc). How do we make the game luckier to where skill will come ahead in the long run but luck will play a part in the out come so that the same 2-4 guys don't always win.

Well, this is kind of how some tournaments succeed right now without luck. Two recent events, the Swanee and Chet Itow, are examples of this. The difference is the entry fees are relatively low, the events pay pretty deep, and they are in the general area/time of a bigger event the pros attend. In the case of these two events it is the USBTC.

The low entry and deep pay schedule gives the dead money amateurs the incentive to try to cash or at least get "lucky" enough to draw a match against a known player or two.

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[Socopool79]

Well, this is kind of how some tournaments succeed right now without luck. Two recent events, the Swanee and Chet Itow, are examples of this. The difference is the entry fees are relatively low, the events pay pretty deep, and they are in the general area/time of a bigger event the pros attend. In the case of these two events it is the USBTC.

The low entry and deep pay schedule gives the dead money amateurs the incentive to try to cash or at least get "lucky" enough to draw a match against a known player or two.

Yes the payouts are low and that is the problem. The amateurs play because it is a low entry fee. If the entry fee were higher they probably wouldn't play because they know they have no shot. My point is how can we make it where the game is more "lucky" to where amateurs are willing to put up a higher entry fee knowing that they probably can't win but if things go there way anything is possible.

 

[Socopool79]

Why would they? When was the last time you heard someone say "I bought a Cuetec because SVB uses one?"

Most sponsors are just helping out players by putting them in tournaments. They don't really get any real return on their investment.

A few thousand here and there isn't an issue, but you start talking about 10k entry fees......now we're talking serious amounts of money which would require large returns to justify.

In poker for example again, there are literally 100s and possibly 1000s of players who are capable of winning a huge 10k tournament if they play well and variance is on their side.

Pool however, you have what......20 guys who really stand a chance of winning that type of big pool tournament?

So it becomes a simple math issue. 6000 people put up 10k and 2000 of the have a real chance. Thats a huge prize pool with huge chance for a good return on your investment.

Pool.......20 people have a chance......you'd be lucky to get another 20 to put up "dead money," and the top 5 are the heavy favorites.

So you have a not so huge prize pool and much smaller chance for a return on your investment.

So then those are the only 20 people that would enter the tournament.
What's the problem. Maybe that would at least raise the eyebrows and make it more exciting. The best compete for the most. Isn't that what people wanna see?

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[Mark Griffin]

To SOCOPOOL79:

You need to research a little bit about large entry fee events.

Like the $10,000 entry million dollar tournament.
Like Hopkins $5,000 event (that had 13 entries, I think)?

You obviously do NOT know what you are talking about and have successfully derailed a thread about the number of players going to Hopkins and the added money.

Have you ever worked with the pool community. Can you even create a list of 32 players that would pay a high entry fee to play in an event. Then double it to 64.

In this country, there are not even 20 people you can call top ror players!

Think a little bit next time.
I appreciate crazy ideas probably more than the other guy - but your idea has been tossed around several times - and even tried - all to no avail.

Don't mean to rain on your parade, but maybe you should just call up all those sponssors that were rattled off and tell them to write a check!

Mark Griffin

. . . .this stuff gives me a headache.

 

[cardiac kid]

The low entry and deep pay schedule gives the dead money amateurs the incentive to try to cash or at least get to draw a match against a known player or two.

Hey Dogs,

I resemble that remark!

Seriously, the type of events like Chet Ito and Swanee are what's keeping pool alive at the "pro" level right now. Paying deep insures lots of guys like me entering. Dead money guys provide the entry fees so the "pros" can make a few bucks. Until a major sponsor who is willing to risk a significant investment into the game comes along, this template is all we're going to see.

The same template also works in the Amateur ranks. Check the payouts in the BCAPL Open. This format ensures enough players will cash to bring them back next year. Those that don't cash can try again next year or, as was just recently announced, play in the new Leasure Division. Pretty sure VNEA and ACS work the same way.

Seem to remember many years ago an event was going to be held at Caesar's in Vegas. Race to 21 on bar boxes. Single elimination. Something like $1000 entry fee. Huge payout to the winner. What happened to that?

Lyn

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[Socopool79]

Start calling pool tournaments poker tournaments and start playing with 52 cards instead of 10 balls?

Maybe 6 ball. Everybody thinks six ball is easy. Tweak the rules a little bit and go from there. Make it so everybody can play and think they have a shot but in reality they probably don't. But then when the Chris Moneymaker of the pool world wins a tournament everyone will say Wow if he can do it so can I!" Note: when I say everybody I'm not talking about total hacks I mean people who can play somewhat.

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[cardiac kid]

Why would they? When was the last time you heard someone say "I bought a Cuetec because SVB uses one?"

VA,

Bought my first Schon because I liked the construction, style and balance. Couldn't tell you if any "pro" players were playing with a Schon twenty years ago. Can tell you there are several players in our local room who purchased a "Earl Strickland" model Cuetec. I know because they were vocal about it. Not everyone brags about who plays with the cue brand they have. Bet there are enough players buying a Cuetec similar to Shane's just because they see him play with it live or on video to keep Cuetec paying him. Perhaps they are not as vocal as others but they voted with their pocketbook! That's important!

Lyn

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[Socopool79]

Because your odds on your money go too far down to make it worthwhile. You'd be better off gambling 1v1 with another player for a set amount. Which is exactly where we are at now.

If you don't have sponsorship money, you have to have dead money.

So 20 guys @ 10 grand a piece equals 200,000. Pay 5 spots.
1st 100,000
2nd 50,000
3rd 25,000
4th 15,000
5th 10,000

If you win tourney you get 10 to 1 on money or play somebody 1 on 1 for even money.

 

[vapoolplayer]

.................

 

[watchez]

You've obviously never gambled for a living.

10:1 on your money when you're a 20:1 dog is bad gambling. You'd end up losing 100k trying to win 100k.

1:1 on your money when you're 50/50 or a slight favorite is much better, as you're not going to match up in a game where you're not the favorite if you're smart.

Your flat statement "10:1 on your money" is why I've been playing poker full time for 5 years. People just look at the odds on their money or how much money is in the middle......they forget what the odds of them actually winning are.

You are both wrong - it is not 10:1 on your money when you can cash in other places down the ladder as well.

And I find it hilarious that you are both ignoring Mark Griffin - someone that knows a thing or two about promoting and running a PRO Pool tournament. If I was a sponsor and wanted to ante up to put money up for a big event to get the biggest bang for my buck and maximum exposure, it would be his pro events in Vega$. 7,000 Live bodies in the building - 60,000 - 80,000 League players he can communicate to on a weekly basis. A real area where they could do TV production if it got to that.

I would like to suggest to Mark to use the Grady Matthews tournament model that he used one time but only if it would get the host casino to throw in money as well. Grady had that one pocket event in a casino, where the entry fee was $1100 and last place paid $1000. This way, each pool player had at minimum $1000 in their pocket at the end of the day and had to fight the urge to keep it in their pocket as they walked out the casino. I don['t have the numbers for Mark's events in Vega$ but if each one was
64 players x 3 events = $192,000 extra money.
You would still charge $500 per event or whatever it is.
So actual entry fees including basically giving back the players their $1000 each would be some where around $288,000.
Then you have the money that Mark is already adding to the event. I looked but couldn't find details on that. Let's say $50,000 for all 3 events.
Now you have a pool close to $350K that is wandering around the Rio.
How much would the Rio put up to have a chance to win that at the end of the day along with having their name more significantly tied to the event?